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deactivated member

If anyone watches Big Medicine, there is a TLC discussion board over there. The pschologist (or psychiartist, not sure) Mary Jo started a discussion by asking, "Do women suffer more psychologically and socially because of their obesity?". She then started the conversation out by saying research proved that it affected them more, that an obese woman was more likely to get raped, and that her overweight friends had a difficult time in daily life and dating.  My response was lengthy, but I am going to include it below.  I'll also post a link to the actual TLC messageboard if anyone wants to bounce their ideas around on there. Curious to hear what you guys think...I'm just so tired of hearing the pat answer of "all that matters is how you feel about yourself". I feel like that is a lie and putting the blame of the disservice back on the person who is encountering the obesity bias. Here is the link :  http://community.discovery.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/2951935098 /m/4101954709 Here was my answer to the question:

Yes, oh yes is my answer to the original question. Before I respond at length, I’d like to first preface my answer with a few comments to qualify my statements and provide some perspective to those reading my answer.

Many times, when I say that weight affects women psychologically and socially I am met with the counter comment that I have low self esteem, don’t value myself, or let my weight limit me and people’s reactions are merely a response to my own self perception. I would like to say that my self esteem is quite fine. I am an accomplished, college educated professional. I am a fiscally responsible home owner. I’ve got a good sense of humor, plenty of friends, and a strong, outgoing personality. I’m involved in my church and the community. I’m quite beautiful too. When my BMI is closer to 30 or less, let me say I’m down right gorgeous! I’m 5ft 11.5 “ and I dress nicely. Been told I’m quite stylish before. I hold my shoulders back, my head high. I think I’m quite a well rounded, good catch myself. Things are a bit more difficult because I have a 14 year old daughter. But in a nut shell, I think I present a nice package. My highest BMI was 43.6. The pictures I used on most of my online personals were at a BMI of 37-38.

Please forgive me for providing only my first hand experiences as my supporting evidence. I’ll let Mjo cite the research.

Online Dating:

Eharmony: When e-harmony matches two people, a person can decline/close a match by selecting a reason from a multiple choice list. The options include things like “based on statements in their profile I am not interested in this match”, “we’re not spiritually compatible” “distance” etc. The one reason I’ve gotten close to 90% of the time?? “ I don’t feel the chemistry is there” Based on what?! My picture.

Yahoo and MSN: Several male respondents took the time to send me a personal message. Some more gentle than others. One man said “I sounded great. Would I consider losing weight?”. Another “lose some weight fata**”. Yet another “ Drop the fat and get laid” One man I initiated contact with copy and pasted his reponse to me from the list of his preferences whi*****luded “average or slim” for body figure.  Christian Singles: Unsolicited offers of prayer to help me overcome my fleshly bondage to gluttony. Cute. Curvy Dates and BBW: Better luck here. However, it’s still a problem as many of the men are still typifying a woman based on her body. One man who was 5’4” wanted to see if we could meet and “wrestle”. Sorry but I don’t want a man who wants me only because I’m fat so I can fulfill his weird S&M/smuffocation fantasies.

Church: I belong to a large church that is filled with loving, spiritual, supportive people. Many would never say some of the things below. However, that does not negate my experiences.

1. I was dumped by a hemi-paretic, christian man I had dated for three months. He “loved me in every way but couldn’t get past my weight no matter how he tried”. I was talking/crying to a father figure deacon in my church about this. I said “can you believe he dumped me because of my weight”, to which the deacon shrugged his shoulders and gave me a sheepish grin. The non verbal message I received was “well, can you blame him?”. So, I followed with, “if he knew he felt that way, he never should have dated me in the first place.”. This was met with a very emphatic , “You are absolutely right there!”.  2. Our Sunday school class has chairs that are smaller, with no space between the chairs. There is no way to space them as the class is filled to capacity. I used to sit with my arm literally crossed over for an hour. Legs tucked as tight as I could, sitting straight up and leaning forward . Still, my hips spilled over the chair and often were touching the men sitting next to me. It was embarrassing. I knew there were larger classrooms available so I went to ask one of our pastors about switching classrooms and explained my intense discomfort. The response? Counseling about being a good steward of the body I was given. Scripture references about our body being a temple of the Holy Spirit, and freedom in Christ Jesus. I have stopped going to Sunday school until I can sit in a class where my a** doesn’t hang over onto the thigh of the men next to me. 3. Our worship center holds over one thousand people. A kindly man in his fifties singled me out and approached me because I “looked so happy, serene, and in love with God”. In addition, I was about his daughter’s age, in the mid twenties. Great! I am really in my thirties. Keep talking! LOL. Well, he couldn’t get her to come to church and wanted to introduce her to me since “we had something in common” because she’s so big like me. No joke!!! He meant no harm, but it killed. As if we’d have more in common because we’re both big. Mind you, I wasn’t ginormous. A BMI of about 42 at the time.

I just can’t imagine a man being dealt with similarly in any of those scenarios.

Work: Please keep in mind that I work in a surgical ICU with medical professionals who are supposedly trained to understand the obese. Who, out of anyone, would see the person more holistically. Wrong.

1. I am a core charge nurse. I have heard behind my back that my nickname is “large and in charge”. 2. I bring a thermal box lunch bag. It’s bigger., but not like an igloo cooler. I have had more than one person comment on “all that food” and “do you need to eat all that?!”, heard as I was walking in “like she needs all that food.” and one beratingly told me that “I needed to stop bringing so much so others could fit their dinner in the fridge“ Told this in the middle of shift report in front of everyone. . Never mind what I had in there…unadorned spinach and shrimp salad. Cottage cheese. Carrots. Broccoli. S/F pudding. Nope. What matters is I’m a woman. I’m fat. I’m fodder for the jokes. People at work know what I eat. We eat in front of each other. Doesn’t matter. 3. During different resuscitative efforts on patients who needed CPR I overheard the following comments while performing the chest compressions. “With her doing compressions, that patient is going to have every rib broken” and “I’ll be she can get their blood pressure higher than anyone” alluding to my weight forcing stronger compressions. Just what a stressed nurse needs to hear while a patient is actively trying to die. Who cares about that! Look at the fat woman! Holy S**t!!! 4. Was taking care of a bariatric surgery patient with a BMI of 45 when the junior resident came around to see how his patient did overnight. His inquiry went like this , “How is fatty doing?” . Um Hmmm.  5. Doctors in my presence discussing the bodies of female nurses and doctors. I think they feel comfortable doing that in my presence because in their minds I’m not “dateable”. I’ve heard them talking about how cool it is to have a petite woman and how “thick” a woman was whom I know was only a size 10-12. They all decided she might be too big to date.

Real Life dating:

I’ve had three long term relationships. One ended as I told you above. The man was paralyzed on one side, and spoke like he had cerebral palsy. He was bright and cognitively intact and shared my faith. I dated him after much soul searching . He was not ever one my patients, btw. It was devastating to be dumped after three months because “even though I was perfect in every other way, he couldn’t get past my weight”. It’s not like it was the skeleton in my closet.

Another man, after 18 months (!!!) dumped me because of my weight. Now in his case, I had gone from a weight of 190 to 225. However, he did let me know before he left me that I was now “boner kill”. Can you imagine being told that as a woman!! He wished things could have been different as I was *again* “perfect in every way and no one had ever made him feel more loved, but my weight was too much”.

Had a co-worker who had been flirting pretty heavily with me. He brought one of his friends by to check me out. I overheard his friend say “she’s cute and pretty cool, but her body”. I then heard the coworker “sssshhh” his friend. He never did go out with me. I stopped waiting for him and asked. He declined, while blushing, fidgetting and avoiding eye contact. I think he was ashamed of himself.

The two guys who dumped me because of my weight both shielded me from their friends. I think they were embarrassed of me.

Another female co-worker of mine had been MO for her whole life until the past two years. She lost the weight and looks great. She’s now in her late twenties, but had never had a b/f and was a virgin. After she lost the weight she was set up on a date by her friends and is now engaged to that man. Thing is, she was born and raised and lives in the same small town. Same friends , same people. Was she not worth dating before hand?!

I’ve overheard friends trying to set up someone else with a guy who sounded like he could be great for me. I would inquire and they’d say something to the effect of “I’m not sure he’d be interested in you”. Knowing all other criteria matched well, I couldn’t help but wonder if they didn’t want to set up their guy friends with a fat chick.

Some of us were joking about the “Stud ranch” that Heidi Fleiss is going to start. We actually looked online for male prostitutes for women thinking we likely wouldn’t find any. Well, we did. The sad thing…..the vast majority of the “studs for hire” had a conditional clause: No obese women or No fat chicks. Wow, too fat to even pay someone to have sex with you!

 

 

Sports: In high school I ran track (400, 800, discus, and hurdles), played volleyball, and did weight lifting. Keep in mind my height of 5’11.5”. I weighed 180-190 pounds.

I was close to matching the school record for the 400. The school paper wrote a small piece about how impressive it was, but not before qualifying that accomplishment as being especially impressive because of my “mammoth size”. Nice. I’m still surprised that the teacher/editor didn’t edit that out. I was called Mammoth Marney forever after.

I ran the 800 next to one of the guys, whom I was keeping pace with. His congratulations afterwords were as follows, “Wow!!! You can really run for a fat chick”. Um hmm. I can really run for anybody! I matched you, didn’t I? He was silent.

I usually was a starter for our VB team. Couldn’t understand why I wasn’t starting during a match against a really hard team even though my stats (vertical leap, aces, kills, digs) were at least as good as the girl who was replacing me. I inquired of the coach who said he wanted to intimidate the other team and they would see me and assume I wasn’t as fast. Nice. A male player would have been taken on skill only, not how big or small he looked.

When going for my walks in public, I’ve been mooed at. Had mud thrown at me. When going to the gym to weight lift, I have been looked up and down and sneered at or laughed at.

Summary:

 

Please forgive the length of this post. If you are still reading, I’d like to summarize with the following conclusions. It might be easy to say the people I’ve encountered were all shallow or mean. Perhaps. However, one can’t put all the blame on them, nor can you discount such a vast quantity of experiences . They are a product of society and I am the common recipient denominator. No matter what social and psychological etiologies you attribute the attitudes towards, the facts remain that the attitudes are pre judgments are existant. It is what it is and it must be lived through for all of us women currently alive.

I would love to be proven wrong. Really. However, when I can’t get a date in over a decade no matter how many church singles groups, online dating, or coworkers social events I attend, it makes me wonder. I very recently came to the crushing conclusion that I likely would not have a man show interest in me while being MO, which means chances are I’ll never find someone who will love me for me apart from what my body can offer them. I know it sounds harsh, but you talk to any single woman with a BMI above 40 and ask what her dating life is like. It was deeply upsetting to accept that a true, spiritual, unconditional love was not going to happen. I still pray it does, but experience has taught me different. I am not cynical. Nor am I hopeless. I am merely being a realist.

I know many will disagree with me, but I think we do our children and others a great disservice when we say “you’re beautiful no matter what size”. What about, “you are worthwhile no matter what”? You are worth respect, or you are an excellent human being”. I think a person is worth what is on the inside, however society doesn’t work that way and are we not trying to teach our kids not only how to survive but thrive in the world that they are coming in to ?? I wi**** wasn’t so, and I really believed it wasn’t so for 30 years. I can’t deny the truth anymore though. Our world (sadly) doesn’t work that way. I’ve been told to say “to hell with them!” or “Who wants them if they can’t accept me the way I am?” Really though, how honest is that when 99% of the population feels that way? Or it might be fine if one intends to live alone and asexual. That is not satisfactory for me. Therefore, I sadly admit, that my weight matters. A man won’t love me apart from my body.

Things might be different after someone has fallen in love with you. Most men won’t allow that to happen because they see the weight first and the mental block and heart guard goes up. Men like what is beautiful. THEN they learn to love what at first they merely liked.

Man looks at the outside, while God looks at the heart. I would like to end this with saying I truly believe the following and I only wish our world was utopian enough that everyone felt this way: You do not have a soul. You are a soul. You have a body.

 

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Mary_J
Central, MN
Member Since: 11/19/06
[Latest Posts]

Nice job!  The other thing I get is the implication that my perception of myself alters how I interact with people, so it still becomes 'my' fault.  Whatever!  What you said is absolutely the truth, but I can't throw too many stones, cuz I'm truly not sure I'd date me . . . I know that sounds belittling and down on myself, but I don't mean to be.  It's just a truth. 
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deactivated member

Hi there, Mary J. We actually brought up exactly what you are talking about.....that our perceptions alter how others treat us, again making it all our fault. *sheesh*. I understand where you are coming from. *sigh* It still sucks.  Thanks for reading.
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Kelly K.
Bristow, VA
Duodenal Switch (08/06/07)
Member Since: 11/23/02
[Latest Posts]

Hi Marney, Here Here!  I agree with everything that you've said.  I've had many of the same experiences that you mention.  It even occured to me that I didn't meet my husband and start a relationship until I had lost a bunch of weight and gotten down to a size 14.  I wonder if I would have ever met him and married him if it wereen't for that weightloss.   I wish we could change the world.  Especially since such a large part of the population is overweight or obese now.  We can't continue to keep the same stereotypes or we'll alienate nearly half of the population.   Thanks for your words of wisdom.  they were well spoken and thought out.  
Kelly--Ready for Angel Duty!
HW/SW/CW/GW
367/362/362/165?     


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deactivated member

Thanks for reading. I am sure I'll meet someone as I lose weight. They will love me and swear up and down they would have loved me no matter what. They might honestly convince themselves of that, but they will never convince me.
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spadequeen_10
TN
Duodenal Switch (11/03/03)
Member Since: 05/14/03
[Latest Posts]

Thanks for being brave enough to post this. I read every word. I have had a lot of the same problems, although I gave up on churches a long time ago. I also have to say that at least dating as an obese woman is easier on the other side of the street. Women who have relationships with other women aren't nearly so focused on body size as a go, no-go factor.
About My R&R Gay Wedding in Boston April 30 
Local and Geographical Coordinator-Rose
www.obesityhelp.com/myoh/uzone,pm/mode,compose/userid,301977 /
Wedding Activities Coordinator- Denise
www.obesityhelp.com/myoh/uzone,pm/mode,compose/userid,732703 /
Bachelorette Party Coordinator-LeaAnn
www.obesityhelp.com/myoh/uzone,pm/mode,compose/userid,189566 /
Guest Count Coordinator-Rachelle
www.obesityhelp.com/myoh/uzone,pm/mode,compose/userid,319595 /
                         
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Teamkitty
Member Since: 08/20/06
[Latest Posts]

That's a good point too, Carolyn. Being Jewish, I'd never thought to look in churches, but I never really had a problem meeting people who were interested in dating me. On the other hand, I never went to synagogue to meet guys, although I have had overweight friends find husbands there. While I didn't meet my DH at my highest weight, I was far from slim and trim when our paths crossed. He is normal sized and a very handsome fellow, imho. I've had some ugliness from stupid, insecure and boorish co-workers, whose rudeness was an outer expression of their inner self-loathing. Personally, I've always been "large and in charge" and embraced my inner fearless leader. TK
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deactivated member

Hey TK... I don't "go looking " for men at church. Our church is huge, so they have single socials and fellowships. We all end up sitting together during worship. Unlike your experience though, the only women left in our singles group are the big ones. As soon as some new thin women shows up, she ends up dating one of the guys who has been there.  Glad you've got a good hubby! The good ones are a huge blessing! I'm pretty fearless too. Doesn't change other people's perceptions/aversions to MO women. It doesn't help that I live in a college town. Of those that are actual residents, 46% are young professionals who are busy still partying and playing with the younger college girls.  Thanks for reading the post!
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deactivated member

Carolyn: I think women are more accepting of other obese women. I have a lesbian co-worker who was actually ridiculed by her long term partner for her weight. She had been overweight when they met...it just became the common thing to throw in her face. It was one of those things where she'd say "look how lucky you are to have me, who else would want you?!" Just mean! I feel for gay men, so far as body expectations!! I think they are under even more pressure than women to live up to some ideal.  Thanks for reading my post though. I had a good time writing it.
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Kelly K.
Bristow, VA
Duodenal Switch (08/06/07)
Member Since: 11/23/02
[Latest Posts]

Hi Carolyn, That's an interesting point.  I'm actually a bit suprised.  Since women tend to be more judgemental of each other than men do it would make sense that they would be even more tough in relationships.  I wonder why that isn't so. I wonder if we'll ever really understand the human psyche.  
Kelly--Ready for Angel Duty!
HW/SW/CW/GW
367/362/362/165?     


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deactivated member

I think when your average women are so critical of other women, it is because they are sizing them up/cutting them down as competition. When you're a woman viewing another woman as a partner, things are different. Think of all the slack we give men in regards to their appearance....why would a woman not do that for another woman she was in love with?? That's exactly the reason gay men have such a hard time. From what I've heard , their phsyiques are expected to be fine tuned....and I believe that this is the fasted growing population of eating disorders and body dysmorphia. It's because men set the same standards for men that they would for a woman. Equal opportunity emphasis on the looks. Or in the case of two women, equal opportunity focus on the personality.
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spadequeen_10
TN
Duodenal Switch (11/03/03)
Member Since: 05/14/03
[Latest Posts]

Correction: Straight women are more judgemental with each other--at least partly because they feel they are in competition with each other for male attention. Not that there aren't judgemental lesbians, just much less common.
About My R&R Gay Wedding in Boston April 30 
Local and Geographical Coordinator-Rose
www.obesityhelp.com/myoh/uzone,pm/mode,compose/userid,301977 /
Wedding Activities Coordinator- Denise
www.obesityhelp.com/myoh/uzone,pm/mode,compose/userid,732703 /
Bachelorette Party Coordinator-LeaAnn
www.obesityhelp.com/myoh/uzone,pm/mode,compose/userid,189566 /
Guest Count Coordinator-Rachelle
www.obesityhelp.com/myoh/uzone,pm/mode,compose/userid,319595 /
                         
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hayley_hayley
Duodenal Switch (03/05/07)
Member Since: 02/13/04
[Latest Posts]

Well i think your beautiful too.  Florida guys must be crazy. Come move to Texas.

Height: 5'10 and a 1/2 * 119% loss. BMI = 20.1  Minus 202 pounds from surgery date- No plastics. Pant: 24 to 4, Top 3x to sm, I My DS!  
.

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deactivated member

LOL! Thanks Hayley!
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Dennie E.
Nashville, TN
Duodenal Switch (02/09/09)
Member Since: 11/18/06
[Latest Posts]

I agree with Hayley.   I can't imagine you'd have any trouble in any of the cities I've lived.  Love Dennie


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Lloyd S.
Fairborn, OH
Duodenal Switch (12/20/06)
Member Since: 09/17/06
[Latest Posts]

Wow, fantastic post.  It made me think about my past experiences and those of my "overweight" friends, both male and female.  I think that men do not suffer nearly as much as women.  That is why you don't see very men getting WLS.  Growing up, boys are more physical, so being "overweight" sometimes was an advantage.   Your post brought back a memory from Junior High School (8th grade).  I was friends with several girls that hung out together, unknown to me, one girl (Julie) who was overweight, liked me.  Her "friend" (Margaret) asked me if I would go to the dance with her.  I told Margaret, sorry, I liked another girl (Linda) and that I was going to ask her.  Margaret got furious with me and said, "You don't want to go out with her because she's fat!  We thought since your fat you'd go out with her".  I was stunned.  Not only was I PO'd about her comment about me, but I thought, what kinda friend is that.  I did ask Linda out and it turned into its own fiasco.  She said that she couldn't go to the dance because of her church (they forbid dancing), but she asked if I would like to come to church with her.  I thought, we'll it's almost a date.  I went, but learned that they had a contest at church to see who could bring in the most friends for Sunday school.  They didn't count heads, but did it by how much people weighed.  So, I get weighed in at Sunday school and of course Linda wins with the most pounds brought in that week. Needless to say, I never went back to that church or "dated" her again.

Lloyd
HW 502/SW469/CW250 - Down 219
Hernia repair and Pannilectomy: 13 March 2009

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deactivated member

Lloyd, you are my first male respondent and I even posted this on the men's board. I was a brave girl. lol.  You addressed what I was wondering...if men experience the same critcisms as women do in all aspects of their lives because of weight.  What a good guy that you were willing to go to church with her! I know at our church they encourage kids to bring friends, but I can't imagine it being a competition, nor one based on weight!!! I wonder if they made that up. But you saide they actually weighed you. That is preposterous to me! What a way to turn someone away. Wow!
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Dennie E.
Nashville, TN
Duodenal Switch (02/09/09)
Member Since: 11/18/06
[Latest Posts]

Marney - this was extremely interesting and insightful and well-written.   Plus, I Love your name. I've been thinking about what you wrote and comparing it with my experiences.   My experience is that I didn't get fat, obese or morbidly obese until after I married.   But I don't look back and see my teen years as being terribly attractive.   I think the best anybody would ever say about me is "cute."   Even when I was young and desperately wanted to be hot. What I don't understand is that I've never had a period when my husband was the only man who was interested in me.   I'm short - I'm still short.   I don't have a particularly pretty face.   I have BAD hair.   And it's bad because it's so thin and fine because I'm a freak of nature, too.   I have little to no body hair.  Ewwwwww My older daughter is about 5'10" and a half.   She's blonde and has blue eyes and inherited her father's long bones and Germanic looks.   She really looks like Barbie walking around.   She's never had a shortage of men interested in her, but she's never really attracted good relationship type men. My younger daughter is taller, just a bit over 6' tall and she's big like I am.   Well, not like I am, but she's obese, if not MO.   But she's beautiful.   She's got the Mae West kind of physique.   She's got the height, the good hair, the beautiful face.   Oh, and intelligent and giving and funny.   She's actually brilliant.   She's the whole package.  She's 23 and she's in a relationship now but there were several years between boyfriends for her. So, from what I observe, this prejudice against MO women actually is harder on women with more to offer than with women like me.  I have no idea why that could even possibly be so. Love Dennie


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deactivated member

Now who would say your daughters had more to offer?!  I think there is the intimidation factor with women who are tall and have any kind of meat on their bones. No matter how non threatening their personality is.  Thanks for responding and reading and giving it all some thought.  My mom got the name from an Alfred HItch**** movie called "Marnie". Plus Alfred H. had a long term live in g/f named Marnie and my mom was a huge fan....so there you have it. I like my name too. It's unique without being weird. Memorable. Perfect!
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w8'n no more
middle of, IL
Duodenal Switch (10/21/05)
Member Since: 07/19/05
[Latest Posts]

Great post - I read every word.  I've lived SMO, and I've lived thin.  There is just NO getting past it.  People treat you different thin unless they've lived with a weight problem themselves. 
Kathy
sw/cw/gw
269/136/141
Surgery Date 10/21/05  Dr. Anthone
Aspire to Inspire Before You Expire!
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deactivated member

Thanks for reading. I know there is definately a difference between being thin and MO/SMO.. It's even more intensified for women.
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deactivated member

One thing that actually surprised me is the number of people I know who have lost tons of weight but join in the cruel group once they are thing.  Not all by any means, but several.  I had always expected that those who have "been there" would understand but I have found that isn't always the case.  I don't know if it's kind of like a way to prove that you belong in the thin group or what, but could make a fascinating psychological study. 
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w8'n no more
middle of, IL
Duodenal Switch (10/21/05)
Member Since: 07/19/05
[Latest Posts]

I know them too.  Shoot me in the head if I ever forget my roots.  I've struggled since a small child, and I will always be the Fat girl.  I really know it is like discriminating against someone for being bald from chemo, or having an artificial leg.  It just SUCKS!  We are SOULS, we have BODIES.  How true!
Kathy
sw/cw/gw
269/136/141
Surgery Date 10/21/05  Dr. Anthone
Aspire to Inspire Before You Expire!
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Blackthorne
Kirkland, WA
Duodenal Switch (09/15/05)
Member Since: 05/22/05
[Latest Posts]

It's not that surprising to me - it's quite common for abused children to grow up to be abusers, when the power shift occurs. Not all, of course - but many abusers were abused themselves, and they swing too far to the other side......as payback? Protection? Or it's all they know.

--BT
     Four years postop.       All co-morbidities are resolved.  Lost 101lbs in 1st year.   High wt: 277 Surgery wt:  260.7  Currently:  156lbs which includes 11lbs of bounceback.

Click here to read my blog: Unicorns & Stranger Things
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deactivated member

I have actually always wondered about this.  Why is it that some abused children grow up to be abusers and others don't?  I have actually been looking for articles that study the occurence of people who exhibit abusive behavior towards the obese after extreme weight loss themselves and haven't found any information.  I think the human psyche is fascinating and would love to see it studied.
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