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ejjy
Watertown, MA
Member Since: 04/04/09
[Latest Posts]

well, i re-learned something today.  This post is, by the way, an invitation to debate, question, or counter-point.

1) fat-storing happens in the presence of insulin.

well, actually what penetrated my grey matter today is that fat-storing *only* happens in the presence of insulin.  e.g. - low insulin levels, no fat storage.

huh.

2) insulin happens in the presence of carbohydrates.

oh, yeah, you can see where this is going.  please, if you enjoy your carbs and are doing well on your program with your WLS, please please don't take this as in any way critical of what you are doing.  i am totally on board with everybody  having different bodies and different genetics and different metabolisms and i am NOT a one-diet-fits-all kinda gal.  in fact, that's one reason why i am spending so much time perusing articles on metabolism and nutrition.  i LOVE my carbs.  love... love.... LOVE them. 

but this train of thought just makes too much sense for me, with my history, to overlook.

3) if you eat an extremely low-carb diet, and

3a) eat low-fat high-protein, your body converts the protein to glucose, which is basically the same fuel source created from carbohydrates.  therefore your insulin levels will be higher than:

3b) if you eat middle-protein *high fat* (and low carbs), your body switches to using ketones for energy almost exclusively.  And, because your insulin levels remain extremely low, the fat *CANNOT* be stored as fuel.  it WILL be burned.

4) going with 3b, because your body is now *most* efficiently burning fat for fuel, you will burn more body fat assuming you are also following a relatively low-calorie diet.

This came from sundry internet articles which are not, i guarantee you, peer reviewed and possibly belong in the uni-bomber category of flakes.  BUT... from my amateur knowledge of nutrition, biology, metabolism, and the bio-chemistry of metabolism, this actually makes sense to me.

The author(s) recommended a caloric ratio of: 10-15% carbs, 20-30% protein, and 60-70% fat.

OK - YES I LIKE TO PLAY WITH MY FOOD!!! and this is my version of playing!  Now I invite you to chime in!!!   do you agree?  disagree?  i can tell you right now this makes so much sense to me i am about ready to trash my dietician's low-fat high-protein concepts right out the window because that has never EVER worked for me and i can already feel it's setting up cravings like crazy.  the funny thing is i crave... you guessed it... fats.  not carbs.  THAT is wierd.

SO - feel free to beat the contents of this post to a bloody pulp, i truly will not mind.  i am inviting debate and conversation, not preaching.  WHAT DO YOU THINK?

EDIT: ok the way this breaks down by caloric intake is roughly:

600 calories per day
= 40-47 grams fat
= 30-45 grams protein
= 15-22.5 grams carbs


750 calories per day
= 55 grams fat
= 47 grams protein
= 24.5 grams carbs


1000 calories per day
= 72 grams fat
= 65.5 grams protein
= 31.25 grams carbs

If you look at the protein counts, by the ratio proposed, you would have to consume *at least* 1000 calores a day to make the minimum 60 grams (roughly) recommended for most post-RNYers.

RNY 6/16/09 - Last weighed 10/27/2011 weighed 151 lost 52 pounds  66% toward personal goal  of 125, six pounds from unofficial unpretentious goal of 145lbs......basically very happy.   boo-rah, RNY!

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hazmat11
Member Since: 06/13/08
[Latest Posts]

 Hum does that mean I get to eat more pork rinds? All fat and protein with no carbs. I should be dropping weight like crazy but I am not. It does make sense though.
Susie



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ejjy
Watertown, MA
Member Since: 04/04/09
[Latest Posts]

well, calories do count though. 

RNY 6/16/09 - Last weighed 10/27/2011 weighed 151 lost 52 pounds  66% toward personal goal  of 125, six pounds from unofficial unpretentious goal of 145lbs......basically very happy.   boo-rah, RNY!

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Bonnie S.
San Antonio, TX
Member Since: 11/14/08
[Latest Posts]

isnt this the basis of the atkins and why they say you can eat lotz of fat but low carb and high protein?

but also why RNY works b/c it puts you into ketosis = rapid weight loss , and then you add in carbs?

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highest 274 /current 140  Hgt:5'10...Century Club Member  Skulldr, RIP

                 
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ejjy
Watertown, MA
Member Since: 04/04/09
[Latest Posts]

Yes I'm pretty sure this is the basis of atkins, except *early* atkins tells you to eat as much as you want (i dont't hink they do this anymore).  In this scenario, calories count.  If you eat too many calories, you wont' lose fat, but you wont' gain weight either.

RNY doesn't work because it puts you into rapid weight loss from ketosis - it works because you both eat and absorb significantly fewer calories.  Any benefit from ketosis is strictly frosting on the cake.

The reason why carbs are discouraged is because our ability to eat, portion-wise is so limited that we are in real danger of developing protein malnutrition if we don't eat protein first - and then there is not much room if any for carbs, especially in the beginning.  And of course carbs in general are not the greatest thing for most peopel for weight loss.  However plenty of people feel they are at their best with a balanced ratio of carbs and protein, when they reach a point where they can eat enough to add to their protein intake.

RNY 6/16/09 - Last weighed 10/27/2011 weighed 151 lost 52 pounds  66% toward personal goal  of 125, six pounds from unofficial unpretentious goal of 145lbs......basically very happy.   boo-rah, RNY!

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agt1965
Winfield, AL
Member Since: 08/18/08
[Latest Posts]

Ha, the Atkins from back in the day recommended, if you were unable to lose on the induction diet, that you eat a few days of basically fat, macadamia nuts, even straight butter.  I do think they have changed their tune on some of it but I can say that years ago I was eating a butt load of bacon, sausage, eggs and cheese on that diet and lost weight pretty fast.
I had to follow a low-carb diet for years simply because sugar wreaked havoc with my blood sugar. The docs said my insulin levels were too high for me and metabolized every bit of sugar or carbs quickly which then led to a drastic drop.  With that said, is it any wonder I have a weight problem, because I do thoroughly believe and have been told numerous times that insulin helps the body hold on to fat (and water), especially mine when my ole' insulin is ravaging my body looking for any bit of sugar it can get it's hands on.
I'm thinking of Type 1 diabetics, especially juvenile onset. Those folks, before diagnosis, generally lose a lot of weight quickly, even while eating whatever.  Obviously they don't hold on to water to well either because they tend to be thirsty, sweat and urinate alot.  All of this because of lack of insulin.  So it does make sense that insulin can play a large role in our weight loss battles.
A lot of my medical knowledge has left my hard drive, but that is what I can remember of it.
   
                                      50 pounds lost pre-op!
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fiveholts714
St. George, UT
Member Since: 12/02/05
[Latest Posts]

You just described the atkins diet.  This is also why we eat our protein first and avboid starchy carbs.  Eventually you'll want to eat whole grains because of their nutritional value.  No grains, no carbs is bound to fail eventually because that means a meat/fat diet with no fiber fruit, veges, or fun.


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Not the Same Dawn
BEE EFF EEE, CA
Member Since: 08/09/06
[Latest Posts]

This is probably why I can eat 1600-2000 calories a day and don't gain..Interesting.

My decision to not eat bread (white bread) was because the protein that I needed was just the thin layer in the middle and the bread (pasta and rice too) were just the delivery device for the protein I really wanted...Basically, the box the goodies come in. LOL.

I have added in carbs but not white carbs because those cause a hypoglycemic reaction. Whole grains; fruits and veggies...

The only thing is, at 1600 calories, I'm doing about 120-130 grams of protein a day (diet based on protein and good carbs) and that means I also have to guarantee more water or my kidneys will be impacted...so along with 30+% protein, I'm water loading too at 1 gallon a day.

Works for me.
Yes, RNY worked for me but it also requires a lot of work from me!

Before Surgery: 214
Highest Weight: 240
Now: 125.6
Goal: 130
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namaste2
Member Since: 12/18/08
[Latest Posts]

Thnaks for this post.

A nutrtionist told me years ago that low fat was better than no fat in dairy products - fits in with this thinking.

Janny

Janny
    
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PoohkinandPiglet
TX
Member Since: 07/05/08
[Latest Posts]

Makes sense to me.  Atkins diet was the ONLY way I ever lost weight before RNY.
  
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MSW will not settle
Member Since: 10/26/03
[Latest Posts]

I discovered the theory in high school and while I was fat I was not obese.  Actually, my docs goal for me is what I weighed as a young adult.  Had I not broken with that way of eating, I would not have gained 135 lbs and become obese. 

Your examples have more fat than I eat in a day, but it does not have to be that way.  Today I had:
 
849 calories
43.3 g fat
98.5 g protein
16.5 g carbs

40% of the fats came from two 100 cal packs of almonds.  I needed calories without volume so I could skip a feeding (3 instead of four).  Remove the almonds and the counts would be:
649 calories
26.3 g fat
92.5 g protein
8.5 g carbs

Some would say my carbs are too low but I am very carb sensitive so I deliberately have lower carb days.  Also, my docs diet is stricter and lower in carbs than most I've seen on OH.  I've modified it for my own needs but it is still more limited than many others. 

    MSW
RNY, there is nothing better! Eat sensibly & enjoy moderation. 
          
Link  Overeaters Anonymous  Keep Coming Back, One Day At a Time  
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  STILL  LV'N  IT  BECAUSE  IT WORKS.  RNY  RULES!
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katiekat412
Member Since: 07/03/08
[Latest Posts]

I definately agree this could work, especially because of the long history and succsess of atkins, but that takes into account a few caveats. The low carbs still have to come from the right carb sources- vegetables. Other carbs will cause a spike in insulin levels that will negate the benefits of eating high fat.

Also, I'm thinking, what does this mean for protein? The article was written with the normal person in mind and RNYers malabsorb protein. Does that mean we should aim more for 80g a day versus 60 grams if we are eating 1000 calories? Boy, it would sure take some strategizing to figure out how to get the right amounts for all. Not impossible though! I'm almost willing to be a guniea pig for a week.



Highest weight 250ish/ SW 233/Current weight 147/First goal 135/Crazy goal 130

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ejjy
Watertown, MA
Member Since: 04/04/09
[Latest Posts]

the 60 grams a day protein requirement i got from what appears to be the lowest common denominator among RNYs, which takes into account malabsorption.  My minimum daily requirement (according to my clinic's dietary guidelines) is 60 grams.  Personally I have observed that to be the very low end of what's recommended for people.  It doesn't help that I have 2 different nuts with apparently 2 different belief systems about nutrition and the role of macronutrients.

I can't find the original "article" but apparently the ratios i posted come from "Eat fat get thin" by Barry Groves (1999) (often referred to as EFGT).  Interesting, having looked into this further, Dr. Groves is apparently NOT a fan of ketosis!  SO it's funny that his ratios have been hijacked by a pro-ketosis internet writer.  I'm sorry - i'm looking around for that damn article and can't find it again... all i did was google low carb! 

Anyway, as summarized by "rosebud", "The [EFGT] plan does permit small amounts of sugar and refined carbs. Some of the recipes in Eat Fat, Get Thin are even made with sugar. For this reason, this plan may not be suitable for someone who has a strong addiction to carbs. "

now i'm not advocating for any particular plan, nor even ketosis, just interested in the whole phenomenon.  I definitely am making *myself* a guinea pig because my bottom line is how i feel physically, and right now i feel better than i have in a long time.  I'm attributing that to ketosis - i could be wrong, but it fits the described benefits.

RNY 6/16/09 - Last weighed 10/27/2011 weighed 151 lost 52 pounds  66% toward personal goal  of 125, six pounds from unofficial unpretentious goal of 145lbs......basically very happy.   boo-rah, RNY!

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katiekat412
Member Since: 07/03/08
[Latest Posts]

I completely agree with the end of your post. Unfortunately, I had a BAD food weekend. It's even more dissapointing, because i had an AWESOME food week, Monday through Friday. It seemed like once i got a taste of the carbs, I didn't care anymore. It wasn't even that I was reluctantly making bad decisions, it snowballed through last evening, and now I'm climibing onto the proverbial wagon again, starting my day with a protein shake. I really think this is analagous to any additiction. It's food crack!

Anyway, I felt awesome during the week, with the exception of a little moodiness from the carb deficit. Physically, I felt awesome though. This morning, I'm puffy, bloated, even itchty and sneezy...and I feel YUCKY!  Argh!! I hate that food is poison sometimes!

Seriously, let me know how it goes. I really appreciate the science you are posting on the boards.



Highest weight 250ish/ SW 233/Current weight 147/First goal 135/Crazy goal 130

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eljayem
Member Since: 01/17/09
[Latest Posts]

Are the percentages based on grams or calories?  Carbs and protein have about 4 calories per gram.  Fat has 9.  I did lose some weight on Atkins, but couldn't maintain the eating pattern, since carbs, particularly sugar, was my trigger food of choice prior to surgery.  And I still enjoy the taste of real sugar, when I have had bits of it.  (Think a spoonful of Cap'n Crunch, or 1/2 an Oreo).  I just can stop after the spoonful or half a cookie.  Since I do still enjoy the taste, I will have to be very careful of simple sugars as I get further out. . . 
Eljay
 
While the weight loss is easier with surgery, the lifestyle is harder.
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ejjy
Watertown, MA
Member Since: 04/04/09
[Latest Posts]

definitely based on calories, not grams.

i always had horrible problems with low-carb diets, i tried atkins induction once and was so miserable, i felt like shyte and craved carbs constantly, i caved after 2 weeks.  the only reason i'm even considering it now is due to the miracle of RNY i'm already in ketosis, and my carb cravings are there but much reduced.

EDIT: personally i think those percentages would be hard to hit on RNY due to our protein needs.  i think they would have to be slanted in favor of protein.  whether you take from carbs or fats - eh - i'm sure purists would say take it from carbs, but, i'm finding it hard to get less than 40-50 grams of carbs a day myself.  and that might be too much to make this work for me.  

again i'm not advocating the percentages per say, that just happened to be part of the package i was reading when i made the post.

RNY 6/16/09 - Last weighed 10/27/2011 weighed 151 lost 52 pounds  66% toward personal goal  of 125, six pounds from unofficial unpretentious goal of 145lbs......basically very happy.   boo-rah, RNY!

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ejjy
Watertown, MA
Member Since: 04/04/09
[Latest Posts]

Ok i have been poring over the various low-carb programs looking for information about just HOW many carbs i can eat in a day (or a sitting) and maintain ketosis.  Since I've been in ketosis while eating well above the so-called minimum 10-20 grams of induction, since RNY, but i'm seeing some variability eating 40-50 grams, and my overall calories have increased, i'm wondering how i can maintain this. 

anyway i just found this book: the Go-Diet plan.  Again, i am NOT promoting anything, i haven't even read or tried this program.  But I think i am going to try this, based on our overall discussion, for the following reasons:
- it's based on the low carb, medium-protein, high-fat ratios (although not necessarily the exact ratios i originally posted, i don't care about that, it's the basic idea i'm interested in)
- it's based on a survey of pre-existing low-carb programs
- it's written and developed by actual research scientists and has been *clinically tested*
- blood work returns are good (e.g. concerns about triglycerides and cholesterol which are the usual first-line of attack on high-fat diet plans)
- it strongly promotes the use of probiotics (including yogurt, kefir, etc.)

I'm going to check my library, if they dont' have it or can't get it, i'll order it from amazon.  Will keep you all posted!

RNY 6/16/09 - Last weighed 10/27/2011 weighed 151 lost 52 pounds  66% toward personal goal  of 125, six pounds from unofficial unpretentious goal of 145lbs......basically very happy.   boo-rah, RNY!

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