Denial: It ain't just a river in Egypt

exactly!

I don't post alot but read everyday. It amazes me that someone who chose the ds, comes over here to start something, when, if someone other than a dser posts on that board, OMG, they are usually all over them. I have noticed that there are a few folks that take over the ds board and if you don't agree with their opinions, you get slammed. Everyone is entitled to their own decision on which surgery they choose, it's a personal issue, we all know that. It's no ones business who choses what, why put so much energy into worrying about what other people do? I wonder if the people who start crap only do it here or do they butt into everyones lives everywhere. I have seen people calling each other stupid etc., it's ridiculous. IMO these members need to grow up and mind their own business, the world is round, not one sided.

What makes me laugh when I see stats like this is because anyone who puts a lot of stock in these stats are the same people who don't understand that any WLS is only a tool. 

The person still needs to make the right decision as to what surgery to have, when to get off their but and work out, what foods to eat.  This is why I am working NOW to retrain my brain and body to be the person I want to be.

I will never forget what I had to do to get this tool.  I will make eating right a priority in my life. I don't care anymore that there is a bag of candy in the office and I can have one piece--it's not for me.  I will work out a few days a week -- some weeks more and some less, but I will keep exercise in my life.

Of course thigns plummet between years 3-4.  People get complacent --- even people without surgery go up and down...the important thing is learning from your mistakes. 

This is why I understand that WW and exercise will always be a part of my life regardless of having surgery.  All I did was get a do-over....but I still have to continue to play the game.

"Of course thigns plummet between years 3-4.  People get complacent --- even people without surgery go up and down...the important thing is learning from your mistakes."

But not NEARLY as much with the DS.  WIth a restrictive-only procedure, just as after a very low calorie diet, you will affect your metabolism and end up worse off than you were before, no matter how little you can eat at a time.  The hunger will return, trust me.

As you can see, this does not haapen with the DS.  From the Hess 2005 10+ year DS study:

 There is no doubt that the DS is an effective proceedure. It's just not right for everyone, nor is the VSG right for everyone. However, it is still too early to determine the true impact of the VSG on high bmi'ers (such as myself) because of the changes in procedure, imo.

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Jut a reminder -- the VSG is not ONLY restrictive, because it does also reduce the ghrelin production (which is linked to hunger). Also, I don't agree that low calorie and restrictive are necessarily the same. I am 4 months out, and I eat anywhere from 1000-1800 calories a day. I usually average around 1200. That is not 'low calorie' in any sense of the definition. Even with the lowest calorie diet, any metabolism issues can be corrected over time (though it certainly is not recommended). 

<< The hunger will return, trust me.>> This would be entirely individual, would it not? You cannot guarantee me that my hunger will return -- how could you?

What I don't understand is why it is not possible to present information objectively, without the subjective assumptions and rhetoric? As with religion, is anyone every truly converted by overarching pressure, loud voices, condemnation, and head-thumping? Does it have to be a 'right vs. wrong'? Mature discussion is determined by the ability to present information without demanding it be accepted or that the other party change.

Again, I don't think there is anything wrong with gathering information -- but everyone must make their own decision from there. 

K

There is a lot more than hunger involved in weight gain and especially in weight REgain. That's what makes this line of "reasoning" so worrisome. Your body may very well adjust to the reduced caloric intake and just stop losing. Our bodies can adapt to so many things. SMO people, in particular, tend to have super efficient metabolisms. The malabsorption part of the DS goes a long way toward counteracting this phenomenon, for reasons that are not at all fully explained.

If you think you can't gain weight on 1,000 calories a day, I sure hope you're never proven wrong.

 My calorie level today is approximately what it will be when I am at goal weight. :) That's at 4 months out. 

I know people can gain on 1000 -- often because they have gone into starvation mode. However, it is possible to improve your metabolism.

K

Even Cirangle and Jossart, two of the biggest "pushers" of the VSG, acknowledge in that presentation that the VSG as a stand-alone procedure isn't for high BMI patients.  Were you not paying attention?  Or are you relying on wishful, magical thinking that this won't apply to you?

Trust me, the hunger comes back.  Pretty much every few hours, even if -- or ESPECIALLY IF -- you can't eat that much at once.  You think you hunger isn't going to come back?  Are you that special?  Ghrelin isn't made only in the outer curvature of the stomach.  It is a temporary situation.  And then when your hunger returns, your pouch is stretched out so you can eat a lot more, your metabolism has been ****** up by yet another diet, and then where are you?

From the Wikipedia entry on Ghrelin:

Ghrelin is a hormone produced mainly by P/D1 cells lining the fundus of the human stomach and epsilon cells of the pancreas that stimulates appetite.^[1] Ghrelin levels increase before meals and decrease after meals. It is considered the counterpart of the hormone leptin, produced by adipose tissue, which induces satiation when present at higher levels. In some bariatric procedures, the level of ghrelin is reduced in patients, thus causing satiation before it would normally occur.

Ghrelin is also produced in the hypothalamic arcuate nucleus,

 Diana --

I never said the hunger would not come back -- but it will not come back to the same levels. Surely that is true for the DS'ers also? Frankly, I get hungry, and have since surgery. It is not the same as hunger before surgery, but it is there. 

No, I don't think I am 'special' and that things won't impact me as it does others. I don't find I spend much time with "magical thinking" at this point in my life. 

Regarding the presentation -- it has been stated before, and you have not responded to the idea that the data in the presentation is based on a larger bougie size (and the possible implications of that information). Do you not think that the bougie size (and the fact that the smaller size means less stretchy tissue) makes any difference?

Maybe the bougie size does not make any difference. But NEITHER of us will know until long-term data comes out based on the smaller bougie size. 

My metabolism is not getting '****** up' by another diet. I eat a reasonable amount of food. I average 1200 calories a day -- with my smaller stomach, that is plenty. If I'm hungry, I eat. Based on what I know about the VSG (from research, talking to the doctor, physiology) I do not believe that my stomach will stretch significantly from the size it is now (I was fortunate to heal quickly). You may disagree, but only time will tell. YOU do not have any evidence of significant stretching of a stomach with a smaller bougie -- do you?

K

Oh hell yes the hunger comes back -- and when it hits, I'm instantly RAVENOUS.  I can fill my stomach (which I would guess holds about 12 oz now, though it empties pretty quickly) pretty much every three hours if I want to.

No, to be perfectly honest, I don't think the smaller bougie size will help in the long run, any more than the tight lap band prevents bandsters with a "functional" band from regaining without stringent dieting.  They have a 40% failure rate.

You are four months out.  Your hunger -- which is already back -- will increase, and you won't have as much restriction.  You will be dieting again.  Of that, I'm almost certain.