Carbs- low carb, moderate carb, ignore carbs... a perspective

Hi Justpete,

I like that you think about carbs being in conjunction with protein or fiber, and not just carbs.  I guess I was approaching it that way, without really defining it that way- but that sure makes it simple!  I would add carbs via veggies too.  I have never looked up how much fiber is in say spinach, I just eat it.  :) 

Protein is super important, so veggies early out really can be difficult to work in.  Hang in there!  Try increasing your fluids to help the digestion issues.  During the first 2 months I took a lot of colace and that did the trick.  Good luck on your journey!

Well, havent you just stirred up a wee firestorm today! Good for you!!

Unfortunately different plans are not embraced around here. They are slammed, criticised, treated with contempt, or ignored because it is contrary to the "popular opinion".

This forum is about learning from others experiences. But the breadth of that experience is very narrow as there is only one version of the truth that is allowed to be discussed without ridicule and sarcasm. Why shouldn't other people be allowed to share their experience or thoughts. If someone doesnt agree with something, that's fine. We are all adults that can make our own decisions from the information we read and weed out the bull****

Like you, balance has absolutely worked for me. 173lbs in 9 months is a fantastic success. However as I dont restrict carbs specifically and just work them within my daily calories rules, I'm ignored as one of the naughty kids, like you, who dares to share a different journey.

Note the important word there....SHARE....not evangelise.

It makes me really angry when I read posts here from people stressing out, not wanting to take things like vitamins because they have 3 grams of carbs and they can't have them and keep to under X amount a carbs a day. FFS!!!!....take the bloody vitamins!!

What works for one may not work for someone else, but it doesn't make either route any less valid. We aren't all 5 foot tall. But if you believed everything you read on here, we are all the same, with the same bodies and same issues with food, so should do the same one approach.

Peoples different bodies need different things and react to things differently, which is why I believe that people need to know that is ok to educate themselves, learn what works for them and make some sensible tweaks if they need to. Otherwise they spend their lives freaking out about everything they put in their mouths. Is that a healthy, sustainable relationship with food? Not in my world.

I am almost afraid to ask, but what does FFS mean?  Lol, it can't be good given the context...

My goals isn't to stir up a firestorm, but rather to simply share my perspective.  I sincerely respect the varied approaches.  I abhor people being explicitly told to disregard their advice given to them from medical professionals.  I think your comment about some folks being afraid to take their vitamins is an excellent example.  

Congratulations on your success!

 

"Most programs would not advocate keeping carbs under 40 grams per day,"

Really? And you know this how?

I've been on these boards and others like them for over 5 years and the most common recommendation I've seen is to keep carbs to 40 g or less during the losing phase. It's definitely the majority of programs that advocate this. It's only about 10-20% of programs that insist that carbs should be over 100 g per day. So I would say that, actually, most program DO advocate keeping carbs to under at least 60 g per day but usually 40 g or less.

"Not to mention that it goes against just about all wisdom out there on what a healthy diet is."

No, it goes against the current recommendations that are not that old (they aren't as old as me so less than 50 years) and that are under fire from many quarters as not being backed up by science and as causing an increase in obesity and heart disease.

"2.  Suffering from terrible constipation and going low carb?  Yea, you need carbs. "

Actually, you probably need water. People go on about fiber and take things like metamucil and other supplements to get it but fiber is only part of the picture. If your pee isn't the color of lemonade or clearer, you aren't getting enough water and, rather than bumping up your fiber to artificially high levels, you'd be better served drinking more fluid as it will help all sorts of bodily functions including ones that fiber doesn't impact. Plus, too much fiber can cause gastric distress. The recommended RDA is 25 g if you 50 or younger (21 g if you are older) and, if it takes more than that to keep you regular, I'd look to your fluid intake because it really shouldn't.

"4.  Veggies are your friend."

Well that we can agree on. In fact, most of the programs that say to keep carbs under 40 g (or sometimes 50 g or 60 g) say that you don't even have to include your leafy green vegetable counts in your carb counts if you don't want to. No one who wants you to limit carbs is trying to prevent people from eating those kinds of veggies. No one. In spite of you acting like there is some kind of war on veggies going on.

"In all, I made it to goal without any difficulty eating carbs."

OTOH, you also suffered from cancer during that time. (And sorry you had to go through that, btw.) Which makes your experiences very unique and puts you in a position where it's risky to generalize from your experiences to those of 99% of the people on this board. You had unique requirements during your WL that the rest of us don't have.

Now, personally, I am not a big fan of demonizing carbs and I do think that everyone's needs are different. However most people are not exercising like a madman and many who get WLS are insulin resistant. And pretty much none of us are battling serious illnesses that involve treatments like chemo/radiation. Put this all together and this means that the majority of people on this board are much better served by keeping their carbs under 40-60g during the weight loss phase.

I actually was working out like a madman during much of that time (I was training for a Half-Ironman) and yet I still found that I didn't need to consume massive amounts of calories or carbs to fuel my workouts in spite of people insisting that I did because that's what their trainer said or what they read in some article about nutrition for endurance athletes. I did my research. I found out that these people don't understand the science of what is going on with our bodies when we work out and when we lose weight.

The reality is that glycogen -- which is stored carbs -- is found not just in our muscles and liver but also in our fat. So as long as we have reasonable fat stores (which we definitely do when we are obese), we have access to plenty of carbs for quick energy without having to eat all that we need daily. It's only when we get down to that last 10-20 pounds that we need to worry about this and, again, only if we are doing a lot of intense workouts on a daily basis.

Also, the body also makes glycogen from protein in process called gluconeogenesis. (I hope I spelled that right.)

Some people constantly say "the body needs carbs" but it doesn't need carbs. It needs glucose. Which it gets from carbs. And from protein. And from fat. And it gets it from the protein, carbs and fat that we eat, but it also gets it from our glycogen which is (essentially) stored glucose. So, in fact, our bodies have no trouble getting the carbs they need from both storage and food without us having to eat carbs directly.

You can eat them if you want and, as long as you don't eat more calories than you burn, you will lose weight. But eating protein raises your metabolism over eating carbs. It's more satiating. It's less likely to spike your blood sugar. Plus, when we're on a VLCD, we have higher protein needs than average. So you're going to be better off if you emphasize the protein.

Which begs the question: why not do it?

And, if you do do it, this funny, amazing, wonderful thing might happen to you. Instead of looking at these carbs as something that you absolutely MUST have to make life worth living, that if you don't have them, you'll somehow feel horribly deprived, you may find yourself thinking about food differently. You may find that this hold that certain types of foods has on you lessens. This is then followed by phase two where the hold that all food has on you will lessen. Which is really an awesome place to be in - a place where food doesn't control you, but you control it.

Btw, I'm 4.5 years into maintenance and I was able to "develop the skills needed to eat a healthy balanced diet" just fine. The idea that consuming 40-45 g of carbs (because that's where I ended up with the exercise I was doing under my programs recommendations for me) for months 4-6 instead of immediately jumping up to 100-120 g as soon as I could (which would probably only have been about month 4 or 5 anyway) means I'd somehow be stunted in my ability to eat a healthy diet for the rest of my life is actually pretty amusing to me

Do you have a reference for this statement  "The reality is that glycogen -- which is stored carbs -- is found not just in our muscles and liver but also in our fat."  I don't believe this is scientifically accurate. 

Luckily science doesn't depend on belief. 

http://lowcarbdiets.about.com/od/glossary/g/glycogen.htm

Relevant part: Glycogen is the main way the body stores glucose for later use. It is a large molecule produced in the liver, although it is also stored in the muscle and fat cells.

However, this article is actually quoting from a scientific study which was posted to this forum just a few days ago.

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/56/1/292S.full.pdf

 

 

1992, well that certainly is an oldie but a goodie.   Unfortunately it makes a completely unsupported, unsubstantiated statement that does not reflect the AMOUNTS of glycogen allegedly "stored" in fat cells.  Here is something that is more current, pertinent, scientifically supported and - oh, I dunno - ACCURATE. 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2826604/

“Triglyceride storage in adipose tissue comprises the principal energy reserve in mammals. Additionally glucose can be stored as glycogen in the fed state, primarily in liver and skeletal muscle, for mobilization during times of energy deficit. Adipose tissue also contains glycogen stores albeit at very low levels. ”

 

“In 1942 a seminal publication by Tuerkischer and Wertheimer confirmed the poly-saccharide as glycogen. The experimental design entailed several days of calorie restriction in rats, followed by unrestricted access to food. Upon this transition a massive, transient deposition of glycogen was observed in adipose tissue comparatively much higher than basal glycogen levels in the fed state. Furthermore the return of lipid stores in the re-fed state occurred only after the initial spike in glycogen. Maximal fat repletion was achieved by 4 days of re-feeding at which point glycogen levels returned to trace amounts.”

 

“The disappearance of adipose glycogen may thus be said to mark the re-establishment of a fat equilibrium in the organism.” 

 

“Essentially, the adipocyte is a fat laden cell consisting of a large central lipid droplet. As highly concentrated energy the central lipid droplet leaves relatively little area for the remaining cellular organelles. Glycogen, with its branching, concentric structure, is a bulky molecule and requires hydration. Therefore a straight-forward explanation is that spatial limitations favor low glycogen levels. Additionally, first observed in the 1960s only a small percentage of glucose taken up by the adipocyte is incorporated into glycogen (4.5%) (Flatt and Ball 1964) and it is known that adipose glucose uptake accounts for less than 10% of total body glucose utilization. Therefore it is unlikely that adipose glycogen serves as a primary fuel storage site in the fed state. ”

Lol, clearly you are not nearly as lazy as I am bagelface!  Thanks for the citations there.  I have been around the block before with this poster though- she is locked into her position (not a bad thing) but also entirely intolerant of any other alternative route.  I think, however, that it is good for our newer members to be able to read about both sides of the fence so they are able to figure out what is the best fit for them.  

I can't take all of the credit for that one.  I have a great friend who is quite the brilliant biochemist.  I sure did not hear anything about glycogen in fat in any of my biochem classes so I got her thoughts on it as well. 

Well, give your friend a thank you then!