DS vs RNY??

MarciRenee
on 3/11/10 12:33 am - IA
Very PERFECT observation of the potluck!  I found that out for myself when I attend Lori's BBQ latst July about 2 weeks before my surgery!  Not only that they were happy, eating normally, and did NOT stink up the place!  No one was running off to the potty every 2 seconds to fart or poop!!
Marci       
Lucy B.
on 3/11/10 12:24 pm
I must have been good at sneeking away to fart!! You didn't even notice  

 

 

 

 

 



    
MarciRenee
on 3/11/10 6:50 pm - IA
MarciRenee
on 3/11/10 6:53 pm - IA


(sorry about the other deleted post)
Marci       
(deactivated member)
on 3/11/10 12:38 am - Bayonne, NJ
I had both. Had RNY when I did because it was more readily available and it was covered by insurance. I had a revision to DS because I needed to correct a problem that was caused by my RNY, and I wanted to make sure that I could maintain my weight loss for the rest of my life.
(deactivated member)
on 3/11/10 12:41 am
I chose the DS over RNY for the obvious statistical reasons. That was real life enough for me. Now that I've gotten over the post-op hump so to speak, things are really improving to the quality of life I only dreampt about pre-op. Just as the vets, research and stats explain, there is no over-thinking, dieting, calorie & fat counting, exercise til your tits fall off mentality of the past. Toss that right out the window. That is the beauty of the DS vs RNY. I can be as normal as the normal person next to me. I look forward to a long, healthier life with my new guts. All I have to do is follow the rules and I'm living the "this is it" surgery. But as always, it is a personal choice...and I know I made the right one for me.
beemerbeeper
on 3/11/10 12:44 am - AL
It was not any one thing but the cumulative effect.  I guess if I had to pick the single most important issue that helped sway me towards the DS it was it's high rate of permanent CURE for diabetes.  Diabetes killed my "normal" weight mother and I knew that with my weight and sednetary lifestyle and horrible diet that it was going to catch up with me too.  Now I don't have to every worry about diabetes again.  (Yes the RNY appears to stop diabetes immediately post- op but it COMES BACK.)

The second most important factor was the long term success rates.  They are markedly better than those for the RNY.  I knew I was not going to get a second chance at this and I had to get it right the first time.

The other important factors:

More normal diet.  No dumping.  Keeping my normally functioning stomach (with the pyloric valve).  Ending of high cholesterol. 

When you look at the revisions forum you will find plenty of people with failed RNYs.  There is even a special forum for people with the RNY who are on a DIET.  I wanted to END my life of dieting.  I don't consider what I eat on the DS a diet at all.  I just choose high protein low carb foods.  I eat A LOT and I am dropping pounds every week.  When you are looking at the revision board count how many people are seeking revisions from the DS.  

The "magic" of the DS is that it continues to work forever.  If for some reason you gain weight it will come right back off as soon as you go back to a high protein low carb diet.  THAT is amazing.  And SO not true with the RNY (which is the reason people with the RNY have to DIET, as in calorie count, low fat).

Oops I guess I went on and on.

When you look at the research it just seems to be a complete NO brainer.  The DS is a MUCH better surgery.

Becky




MarciRenee
on 3/11/10 12:44 am - IA
Once I learned about the DS (thought that RNY was my only choice until I was kindly directed to this board) there was NO competition between the two for me.

My short list, off the top of my head:
* NO dumping
* NO food getting stuck
* Fully functioning stomach
* Best stats for weight loss for people that are SMO (which I was, but no longer am!)
* Best stats for keeping weight loss off
* Metabolic change due to the switch in the intestines - better resolution of Type 2 Diabetes
* Malabsorbtion to help keep the weight off forever
* No more dieting - get to eat high fat and flavorful foods - focusing on protein
* Ability to take NSAIDS
* No blind stomach
* No more guilt about eating...the DS is the most forgiving WLS tool out there.  Yes there ARE rules to follow but if you slip and eat too many carbs it will be ok.  If you have a regain due to that issue, you go back to basics of low carb and the weight comes off again...and that seems to work no matter how far out you are.  THAT is AWESOME.  I felt guilty about how I eat for pretty much my whole life, I wanted to be DONE with that.  With that being said - that isn't a license to eat however you want - you need to follow the basic rules of protein first, fat second, and carbs (preferably complex) last.

Hope that helps.  I am a little over 7 months out and I've lost a little over 100 pounds.  I do so  my DS.  I follow the rules for the most part by being mindful of carbs and deciding if I've had enough protein and if they are worth it to me to eat.  Do I ever eat cookies?  Yep I do, Girl Scout cookies?  Do I eat the whole box in 1 sitting anymore?  No I do NOT!  I would have my DS again in a heartbeat, no doubt about it.
Marci       
LeaAnn
on 3/11/10 1:48 am - Huntsville, AL
When I began looking into WLS and was researching the RNY I was told that the POUCH would stretch over time and I would be able to eat more food. I wanted to know how this would be supportive of keeping the weight off long term. I was told that after a year of eating right that I should be in the habit and stay in that habit. Huh!? I know myself, I love to eat like everyone else, and I will slide back into old habits if I'm able! I clung to that slightly malabsorptive aspect of the RNY thinking that would perhaps help me keep some weight off. Then I read my RNY surgery pamphlet which stated I could expect to keep 50%-65% of my weight off long term. ?!?! I was doing more reading and research trying to see how people fared after doing this to themselves, and that's how I stumbled onto the DS.


The small stomach that is left intact with the DS will stretch back to a normal (but smaller) sized stomach with time. Opponents of the DS argue that the removal of the stomach is a bad thing. In fact, it is not a bad thing--the blind pouch left off to the side with the RNY is a bad thing. This blind pouch is inaccessible to endoscopy evaluation, thus you cannot be diagnosed in the future with problems such as ulcers or tumors, etc. This is why RNYers cannot take NSAIDs because of the potential for ulcer formation in the blind pouch. DS patients can take NSAIDS with no problem.

It is the malabsorptive portion of the DS that results in the superior long-term excess weight lost (around 85%). More of the intestines are bypassed in the DS than the RNY resulting in more malABSORBTION of calories, but NOT more malNURTRITION because of the superior digestion of a fully functional stomach instead of a man-made pouch.

Although the size of the stomach is reduced with this procedure, the
pyloric valve of the stomach, which controls the emptying of food
from the stomach into the intestines, remains in tact. With the RNY
there is a man-made pouch which allows food to pass freely through
the man-made "stoma" from the pouch into the intestines
resulting in dumping syndrome (a potentially-dangerous, sudden jump
in blood-sugar level caused by undigested food entering the
intestines), stomal ulcers, and vitamin deficiency due to poor
digestion. The malabsorption component of the Duodenal Switch as
relates to CALORIES from fat is GREATER than with the RNY because
more of the intestine is bypassed. The DS retains a normal,
functioning stomach with access to all the digestive juices, etc.,
rather than a man-made pouch.

Long-term excess weight lost and kept off is better with the DS.
After the “honeymoon” period of the first year or two of rapid weight
loss ends, 20% (or 1 in 5) of post-op RNY patients gain back 50% or more of
the excess weight lost. The DS combines both restrictive and
malabsorptive elements to achieve and maintain the best reported
percentage of excess weight loss, 80-85% with little or no regain.

The DS surgery without gastric reduction has been
performed on non-obese, diabetic patients since 1997 and is
increasing in popularity in Europe as an IMMEDIATE CURE for type II
diabetes. Latest studies on this technique report a 98% rate of cure.
This is attributed in theory to the malabsorption component of the
DS. The RNY does not cure diabetes. It only puts it in remission, and
the disease oftentimes comes back in two or three years--even if the
patient maintains most of their weight loss. It seems even a small
weight gain long-term (which is the norm) will cause diabetes
relapse.

Here's a list of careful studies which demonstrate the efficacy and safety of the DS procedure:

· Results of Ten Years or More Post-DS by Dr. Douglas S. Hess (128-138) (preprint which was recently published as "The Biliopancreatic Diversion with the Duodenal Switch: Results Beyond 10 Years," Hess, Douglas S.; Hess, Douglas W.; Oakley, Richard S.; Obesity Surgery, March 2005, vol. 15, no. 3, pp. 408-416(9) which concludes, “...it can be seen that the DS procedure is a safe and extremely effective procedure for weight loss, in fact more effective long-term than the more commonly used Roux-en-Y gastric bypass surgery. It is essentially a cure for Type II diabetes. Other long-term studies have shown little or no serious or irremediable nutritional sequellae, contrary to frequently expressed—but unsubstantiated—concerns. It has been successfully performed in our practice for over ten years, and for several years longer in other practices, and has in our opinion become, if not the “gold standard,” the “platinum standard” for bariatric surgery. It is certainly no longer considered an experimental or investigational procedure, either by the American Society for Bariatric Surgery (ASBS) or by the surgeons who perform it” .


· The Duodenal Switch Operation for the Treatment of Morbid Obesity by Gary J. Anthone, MD; Reginald V. N. Lord, MD; Tom R. DeMeester, MD; Peter F. Crookes, MD (188-189). This study included 701 patients who underwent longitudinal gastrectomy with duodenal switch operation. The mean loss of excess body weight exceeded 65% at five or more years. Perioperative mortality was 1.4% and morbidity was 2.9%. The study concludes, “the ...duodenal switch is a safe and effective primary procedure for the treatment of morbid obesity. It has the advantage of allowing acceptable alimentation with a minimum of side effects while producing and maintaining significant weight loss. These results are achieved without developing significant dietary restrictions or clinical metabolic or nutritional complications” .

· Duodenal Switch: an Effective Therapy for Morbid Obesity—Intermediate Results (190-194): Published in 2001 in Obesity Surgery, this article reflects the intermediate results of Dr. Baltasar’s DS study which has been ongoing and reported for several years. Dr. A. Baltasar is chief of Surgical Service; Surgical Staff; Surgical Resident; at Virgen de los Lirios Hospital, Alcoy, Alicante, Spain: 125 patients were in the study from 1994 to 2000. No patients were lost to follow-up. Dr. Baltasar reports the DS as “the most effective operation to lose weight” (193). He cites a major benefit of the surgery as patient quality of life in that patients can eat virtually all foods and do not suffer the major restriction of the restrictive Roux-en-Y gastric bypass procedure. The weight loss has been consistent with the other studies.

· Biliopancreatic Diversion with a Duodenal Switch (195-216). In 1998, Dr. Hess of Bowling Green, Ohio, published a 10-year follow-up report on the first 440 patients to undergo his BPD/DS proceudre in Obesity Surgery, the leading journal addressing issues related to surgical treatment of morbid obesityh. Generally considered the “father” of the DS operation, having integrated the Scopinary BPD with Dr. DeMeester’s DS procedure, Hess reported his results on 440 patients. The paper outlines many advantages to the DS procedure and states, “this method of surgery has been the most successful for patient weight loss that we have used so far” (216).

· 1998 Scopinaro Report (217-236): The BPD procedure (without the duodenal switch), on which the BPD/DS is based, was first performed in 1976 by Dr. Nicola Scopinaro of Italy. In 1998, Dr. Scopinaro published a 21-year follow-up report on a series of 2241 BPD patients. This report concludes that the BPD is “the most effective procedure for the surgical treatment of obesity” (233).

· Biliopancreatic Diversion with a New Type of Gastrectomy (172): In 1993, Dr. Picard Marceau of Laval, Canada, published a report on the benefits of the BDP/DS procedure over the unmodified BPD. This report confirms that the DS procedure eliminates or greatly minimizes most negative side effects of the original BPD (172).

· Nutritional Markers following Duodenal Switch for Morbid Obesity (567-574): This study was published in the 2004 Jan:14(1):84-90 issue of Obesity Surgery and concludes the the DS “is not associated with broad nutritional deficiencies. Annual laboratory studies, which are required following any type of bariatric operation, appear to be sufficient to identify unfavorable trends. In selected patients, additional iron and calcium supplementation are effective when indicated” (568). This study was submitted to dispute the claim made in BC/BS’s policy that “BPD with or without Duodenal Switch has malabsorptive properties and eventual metabolic complications have been demonstrated” (547). This assertion is simply not true any more for the DS than for the RNY which BC/BS readily covers.

· Comparison of Nutritional Deficiencies after Rouxen-Y Gastric Bypass and after Biliopancreatic Diversion with Roux-en-Y Gastric Bypass (Abstract of a study published in Obesity Surgery in August 2002) (576): This study concludes that there is no significant difference in the incidence of deficiency of the nutritional parameters studied, except for ferritin (37.7% low ferritin levels after RYGBP vs. 15.2% after BPD, P=0.0294). This study was submitted as this was the only DS-related study listed as a reference (263) by the Anthem Blue Cross Blue Shield policy (253-269), which deems there is sufficient evidence to support the BPB/DS (254).


Among the advances of the DS procedure is the absence of dumping syndrome (a potentially-dangerous, sudden jump in blood-sugar level caused by undigested food entering the intestines through a man-made opening), stomal ulcers, and vitamin deficiency commonly seen with the Roux-en-Y (RNY), the compulsory procedure covered by BC/BS of AL (165, 170-237, 267, 559). With the DS, the patient retains their naturally functioning stomach (although the volume is reduced) along with the pyloric valve or natural exit from the stomach to the intestines rather than a problematic, man-made “pouch” as with the RNY (165). Other advantages of the DS are better sustained long-term excess weight loss, a 98 percent cure (181, 183) rate for type II diabetics and ability to take NSAIDs, non-steroidal anti-inflammatory medications. Another advantage still is that the entire stomach and duodenum can be visualized by endoscopy, unlike the RNY which divides the stomach into an upper and lower pouch, the lower of which cannot be visualized endoscopically (165).

Among the advances of the DS procedure are the following:

· Rarity of dumping syndrome (a potentially-dangerous, sudden jump in blood-sugar level caused by undigested food entering the intestines through a man-made opening), commonly seen with the Roux-en-Y (RNY).

· NO stomal ulcers commonly seen with the Roux-en-Y (RNY).

· The DS patient retains their naturally functioning stomach (although the volume is reduced) along with the pyloric valve or natural exit from the stomach to the intestines rather than a problematic, man-made “pouch” as with the RNY.

· Better sustained long-term excess weight loss and, unlike the RNY, a low failure rate.

· A 98 percent cure rate for type II diabetes.

· The ability to take NSAIDs, non-steroidal anti-inflammatory medications.

· The entire stomach and duodenum can be visualized by endoscopy, unlike the RNY which divides the stomach into an upper and lower pouch, the lower of which cannot be visualized via endoscope.

· DS surgery results in little to no nutritional or metabolic complications as long as the supplementation regime (required for any weight loss surgery) is followed carefully.

· DS surgery results in a superior quality of life to RNY in that patients are able to enjoy eating a normal, balanced diet with no specific food restrictions.

· NO stomal plugging and less vomiting.

Here are some disadvantages of the RNY that your RNY surgeon might not tell you about:

· Sugar is not always the cause of dumping

· Many people don't dump at all

· Many people are vitamin deficient because their food intolerances do not allow them a varied diet

· A lot of RNYers drink meat tenderizer mixed with water because food gets "stuck"

· A huge number of diabetics are not cured by RNY, many improve but not many are cured

· About 68% of those with RNY vomit frequently

· Many people gain at least 50% of the weight back

(deactivated member)
on 3/11/10 2:32 am
Wow!  Thank you for this, LeaAnn! 
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