Moses and Akenaten

Hello. I'm posting to the history board here with a question. What did Judaism come up with in the 1200's BC, ??, that was truly unique from what the rebel sun worshiper Akenaten, founder of Armarna, invented, vs. any traits that were clearly reincarnations of that brief foray with monotheism about three hundred, ??, years earlier? I suspect that perhaps certain underground sects of Aten persisted long after Tutenkahmen/Ay reverted to the old Egyptian gods, and caught on amongst slaves hundreds of years later? This is probably a well worn topic, and I'm probably spelling some or most of the names incorrectly, but I just noticed the similarities recently. Any comments appreciated.

Hi Eric, What an interesting topic. I do not know how well worn it is, because I had never heard of it. It is worth some investigation. However, during the Amarna period, people were being forced to practice Atenism. I believe the opposite of what you are saying. I think there were underground sects of polytheism going on although being caught meant death. On the kings lists of names, Akhenaten, Tutankhamen and Ay are not listed because they all had something to do with the Atenism. Ancient Egyptians did not want that. Every effort was made to make sure their names and likenesses were erased from history, although it was not successful. As far as Moses goes, he was raised Egyptian until he left. So for the first part of his life, he also practiced polytheism. I truly think there were very little if no sects of underground Atenism. But then again, I don't have a degree in theology, or Egyptology.....yet.. hahaha. Tammy

The Moses as Akhenaten or having been influenced by Akhenaten is pretty much a dead dog. Several authors (not Egyptologists) have written about it with no evidence to back up their speculations, and almost all Egyptologists reject it. The most convincing arguments that I've seen are the the Hebrews in Egypt were actually the Hyksos, who were driven out of Egypt by Ahmose I, who was the founder of the 18th dynasty (some chronologies list him as the last king of the 17th). Its been thought before that during Akhenaten's reign that he closed the temples of other gods. This has been shown to be incorrect, as both Akhenaten and Nefertiti contributed to temple construction of Amun and other gods during this time. Also at the city that Akhenaten founded, Akhetaten (called in modern times Tel-el Armana, there have been typical "household" gods found.

http://www.bibleorigins.net/Exodus1540BCHyksos.html That page has more information ............

Nice response! I'm wondering, though: 1) What was the frequency/distribution of monothesim circa 2000BC - 1000BC anywhere in the world? 2) What was its geographic distribution? 3) How statistically random is the overlap between the two? And, complicating things, the Hyskos did get around a bit, as did other groups. My personal interest in this lies in better understanding the probability (or history) of monothesim arising in multiple places in parallel as one consequence of society becoming more complex. Theme: Simple-culture favoring supernatural panoply vs. complex culture favoring monothesitic clarity. I'm no expert on the topic at all. No idea what might have been said about the above theme by people who know what they are talking about. > This has been shown to be incorrect, as both Akhenaten and Nefertiti contributed to temple construction of Amun and other gods during this time. Even with their focused fanaticism of "The sun god is the ONLY god and WE are the only connection between you and it", no single ruling family could wipe out 1500 years of polytheistic tradition in one generation. I suspect that trying to do that would have been pragmatically disasterous.

Before I go any further I'd like to make sure you know I'm not an Egyptologist, nor an archaeologist. I wanted to become an archaeologist when I was younger but life has a way of throwing monkey wrenches at your head. I have however, on my own, studied Egyptian history for the past 30+ years, and South American Andean history for the past five. > What was the frequency/distribution of monotheism circa 2000BC - 1000BC anywhere in the world? 2) What was its geographic distribution? 3) How statistically random is the overlap between the two? To my knowledge there is really very little monotheism in the ancient world. Most cultures and civilization no matter how simple or complex seemed to believe in many gods. Really I can't think of any other than Zoroastrianism. Zoroastrianism was founded somewhere around 600-500 BC in modern day Iran, and has quite a number of parallels to modern Christianity (heaven and hell, individual judgement). Their god, Ahura Mazda, has twin sons one of them (basically) represents good and the other represents evil. Which might be an interesting precedent to God, Jesus, and Satan (although not God's son, Satan was very highly placed before his fall). Scholars who study Biblical history have also suggested that it was Zoroastrianism priests recorded in the Bible as the three wise men who appeared at Jesus' birth. (of course Zoroastrianism is later than the period you were looking at) > Theme: Simple-culture favoring supernatural panoply vs. complex culture favoring monothesitic clarity. Some of the most complex cultures and civilizations had so many gods that its hard to keep track of them. >no single ruling family could wipe out 1500 years of polytheistic tradition in one generation. I suspect that trying to do that would have been pragmatically disasterous. You're right ... there's no way .... A lot of the wealth of Egypt was tied up in the temples to various gods, especially Amun. There were also temple owned farms and schools. And don't forget the priesthood held a LOT of power

Good/right. From my (a)/(b)/(c) above, I'm thinking [Only two known instances of monotheism known anywhere in 2000BC-1000BC = Hebrews and Akenaten] + [Hebrews & Akenaten overlaping precisely in geographical terms] = "dead dog" as you mention is highly statistically likely to exibit some form of life. Regarding Central American history, are you familiar with the degree to which Mormon writings might or might not merrit appreciation for compatibility with mainstream sources?

Geographical terms yes ........ chronology terms no ...... If the Hebrews were the Hyskos they were kicked out of Egypt at the end of the 17th dynasty or the very beginning of the 18th. Akhenaten was at the end of the 18th and there were quite a few years between Ahmose I and Akhenaten. The Aten *was* worshipped before Akhenaten of course but no one before him called him the one true god. You also have to look at the actual religious beliefs of Akhenaten: "There is none who knows you [Aten] except your son, Neferkheprure-waenre [Akhenaten]. For you make him aware of your plans and your strength" Not only did pharaoh's religion seeks to deny the existence of other gods, whose representatives had formented opposition to his will, but to the new god -itself a mere abstraction - only the king himself has direct access. The resultant dynamic is a revealing one. Akhenaten and his family worshipped the Aten, while the populace worshipped them. Whatever pharaoh's own personal beliefs - and they remain elusive - Atenism itself was in practice little more that a pragmatic instrument of political control. To quote James Allen: "The god of Akhenaten's religion is Akhenaten himself" It is hardly surprising, therefore,that Donald Redford should characterize the 'new concept of deity that Akhenaten produces as: 'rather cold. His Disc created the cosmos... and keeps it going, but he seems to show no compassion on his creatures. He provides them with life and sustenance, but in a rather perfunctory way. No text tells us that he hears the cry of the poor man, or succors the sick, or forgives the sinner. This reason for this as for all other conspicuous absences in the new cult is simply that a compassionate god did not serve Akhenaten's purpose.' The above from: Akhenaten, Egypt's False Prophet by Nicholas Reeves Not a very good model for a loving god ........... >Regarding Central American history, are you familiar with the degree to which Mormon writings might or might not merrit appreciation for compatibility with mainstream sources? The Mormon's opinion of Quetzalcóatl is based on the stories of the god that were changed by the Spanish. Before the arrival of the Spanish Quetzalcóatl was as bloodthristy as the rest, matter of fact excavations at his pyramid in Teotihuacan have revealed a number of human sacrifices. These sacrifices (and they obviously were) dated to the same time as the pyramid's construction. Also some 40 years before the Spanish arrival there was a massive sacrifice of 80,000 prisioners at which the Quetzalcóatl priests participated. Not very Christ-like. After the Spanish arrived they wanted to convert the "heathens" and slowly began changing their myths and turning Quetzalcóatl into a Christ like figure that began preaching against sacrifice and drunkeness to aid in the conversion. Whereas in the ancient codexes that survive Quetzalcóatl is protrayed with dark skin, after the Spanish he was described as white with blue eyes! The most authenic account of Quetzalcóatl's departure comes from the Annals of Cuauhtitlan and was written in the Nahuatl language. The story is vastly different from the hispanized Quetzalcóatl legend: "Tula, a Toltec city in central Mexico, was torn with internal strife and bickering. The god Quetzalcóatl became convinced that the city was doomed due to his great age. This idea was reinforced when rival gods showed him his face in a mirror now wrinkled and unattractive. Quetzalcóatl adorned himself in his feathers and mask, went to the sea-coast, and by his own hand set himself on fire. He spirit rose with the smoke into the heavens and became the star which appears in the morning." The above from: Voyagers to the New World by Nigel Davies Nothing about setting sail over the seas to return later..... that was added by the Spanish. Francisco Pizarro did exactly this same thing to Viracocha a few years later when he conquered the Incas.