I forgot to ask if he exhibits the same kind of behavior while being lunged or is it only while he's got a rider on. You may also want to contact the previous owner ask or find out who the person was giving the massages and inquire as to why he was having massages every month.. if the owner doesn't give you a reason, I'd check w/ the person who was giving the massage. Now I do know some people who have also done accupuncture on their horses w/ much success but it's not something I've never done w/ my horses. But I think your best bet is to have him evaluated by a vet first to make sure there isn't any health related issues first before you deal w/ what might just be a behavioral problem. If it's nothing but a behavioral problem, he made need someone to work w/ him on a one on one basis and start from scratch. I did have Paint Stallion I rode for a gal that would have a hissy fit when asked to canter on the left lead and would crow hop, buck, etc... just to get out of it and once we ruled out it wasn't anything related to back or soreness issues.. We did some major one on one w/ another local trainer after trying everything I had in the book and all it took was one ride by this guy and he was back to behaving and canter w/out hesitation or fuss. Needless to say I'm not a fan of whips but this stallion's behind looked like a checkerboard by the time this guy was done w/ him. Come to find out his owner would give up when ever he started his little show so we contributed this to a learned behavior that took some harsh but effective methods to break. Again, not something I recommed!! Keep us posted as to what you find out.. Kelli

Jack- I think I would seriously consider having a vet and chiro give him a thorough looksie. I've had two horses in training in the past that showed most of the symptoms you've listed above w/ an exception on the urination. One of the horse I had in was a 4 yr old Arabian Gelding that would act up, tail switching, chomping, hopping and we contributed it to bad behavior until we had a chiro in the area and come to find out he had a couple ribs out of wack. After talking in great lenth to the owner, a previous trainer who had broke this guy out as a stallion was purposely flipping this guy over in long lines if he acted up! I guess there was one time where he was flipped and couldn't get up. Unfortunately, the owner didn't take the neccessary precautions and have a vet out to look at him after. They just took everything off and left him be until he was able to get back on his feet after about 10 minutes or so. This guy must have really had a tolerance because I usually check the backs of all my horses prior to and after rides and he never showed any flinching or response until you got on and asked him to move forward. Took only about 2 rides before I finally had someone come out and look. After a little rehab, he went on to win in the ribbons on the Arab circuit but sadly passed away years later due to colic complications. Another Paint I had in also exhibited the same signs above and again I had a chiro out and she couldn't find anything that would contribute so I then had a vet out to draw some blood as the area I was in at the time is known for having low selenium in the grass and hay. Apparently low selenium can contribute to sensitive backs and tying up syndrome but that's all we could fined that was bugging this guy. Once I got his levels back up he was good as gold. Also had an OTTB come in for some deprogramming that was hotter than get out, come to find out his previous owner was feeding him cracked corn but he also had low selenium and I had to be careful until we got his levels up w/ supplements and the right kind of feed, if he got overworked, he'd start tying up in his stall or paddock after words. Not sure what to think w/ the urninating thing but I would definately be picking the brain of my local vet on it. Good luck and keep us posted..

Cheryl, There were a few consistancys that I noticed in that web site. #1) This was done when the first version of the WNV was out. #2) Nearly all accounts of these mares that had problems were given the vaccine AFTER they were bred and very soon into pregnancy BIG BIG BIG NO NO. Any Good vet knows that!!!! Cause of the period of the body producing the anitbodies needed #3) All the stories are from 02-03. Nothing recent. Also ALOT of them admit to giving the booster. I live in a area where WN could be a big problem. Shoot currently my horse lives on an island!!!! My vets specifically say you can give a booster but do not advise it. Cause like any vaccine it needs to be given BEFORE the virus season, NOT IN THE MIDDLE OF IT!!!! Which is when a booster would be givin. Thus why my mare gets it in Mid March to the Begining of April. I wouldnt doubt that this stuff happened one bit, but I aint finding a reason to not give my mare that vaccine. I know many breeders and they havent had a problem what so ever but ALL of their horses are vaccinated BEFORE they are bred. Which is the smarter thing to do if you ask me anyway. They havent had a a bad foal yet and they kick out close to 50-60 foals a season. But thats my opinion on that take. But people find a reason to complain about everything these days. Some of these cases could have easily been "*******" cases also. Where the horse was already exposed, and was givin a vaccine, and that causes SERIOUS problems. Happens alot cause sadly we have vets out there that are so BOOK oriantated they dont think outside the box. I know of 2 vets in my area that are like that, one gave a whole barn a vaccination for strangles AFTER being exposed, Well needless to say there were ALOT!!!! of sick horses and a couple lost foals. And this vet did this at 2 barns I am aware of. So really this all cant be bamed on a vaccine. All products have there ups and downs and some may have reactions , just people need to realize things happen. And to pay attention more to timing and other surroundings in my opinion. But on another note, Im doing great , so im my mare actually have to leave to get her hooves donw now. Cya *~*Nicole*~*

I read a few of the older posts and see that Jack and Lori are both intersted in Parelli. I have been using it for the last two years with my horses and it's great. First, something about me. I am 49 and live in NE Iowa with my wonderful hubby Mike. We have 3 horses on 5 acres. We have a 25 yr old leopard appaloosa mare Keno, a 4 year old bay National Showhorse filly Dixie, and a coming 3 yr old bay roan breeding stock paint (mostly QH) filly Duchess. http://hometown.aol.com/lesliebuscher/index.html I had horses growing up, rode anything and everything with no fear but found out that getting back into horses at this age was a bit scary. I don't bounce anymore, despite the fact that I look like a big old ball. I've been doing mostly ground work with the two fillies but now that I've lost 82 lbs, I won't have any more excuses not to start them under saddle. I've been to two Parelli tour stops and audited a few clinics with Parelli instructors. I have the old Level 1 program, the new Level 1 and the new Level 2. If you never learn more than the 7 games with your horse, you will be miles ahead in improving your relationship with your horse. Anyway, that's me and my horses in a nutshell but would love to talk to other people who are "natural".... take care all, Leslie

Congrats on you gettin so close to surgery, u will not regret it. Yeah i thought i kept myself calm especially the night before surgery, yup, horses know when somethin aint right caused mine to wig out which in turn caused me to loose it too. But it will be fine. Hope to hear from you once on the loosing side. *~*Nicole*~*