Weight loss-Learn it the first time -discussion

Another good post, Dawn, and you have given me a lot to think about here.   I spend quite a bit of time in my head thinking about weight loss surgery, how it affects us, and how to explain it to my friends and family.  Probably too much time in my head, lol, as I am not getting the errands run right now that need getting done.  I would like to discuss some of your statements. Yes, some people rebel against rules.  I hate being told what to do.  But from a surgeon's and insurer's perspective, why perform this surgery on someone who can't follow the rules on what they should be eating and how much and supplementation requirements?  If they are looking for excuses NOT to follow rules, or the easiest path, then this surgery is not cut out (pun intended) for them to begin with.  Yes, it is also human nature to lie to the psychiatrist during the evaluation process, or even self-delusion, in order to get the surgery, but if you know in your heart that you are one of the no rules kind of people, then don't have surgery. I don't know if I would use the word "obsession" to the scale, at least for myself.  I am a scientist by background, and to me the number on the scale is simple concrete, irrefutable information on where I am on that date and time.  How clothes fit is just too ambiguous, for me.  As I said in the first post, I know I could talk myself into believing the lie that my clothes were too tight because the sun was in Venus, or any other excuse I could come up with.  A number on the scale is honest.  I don't let the scale dictate my mood, only my food choices. It is not the cost of the clothes.  They could be free.  For me, the moment I decide to move up a clothes size is the moment I have said "it is okay for me to gain weight".  I understand that some people want, or need, to put back on some weight.  They will feel or look better.  But, for example, I am a size 4, and if now I need a size 10, AND I don't look or feel good at this weight, then saying "ok, I give in, I will get more clothes in size 10", I just don't ever want to be there, so all of the bigger clothes went to charity.  Yes, even if I had stopped at 190 pounds, and a size 16, it would have been a success, compared to my size 32 jeans, size 4X tops that I have kept one of for comparison. I want to be REALLY CLEAR about this point.  It is not the final size or weight that one ends up, as long as you are happy and healthy where you are.  Size 4 is not magic, my life is far from perfect.  But that happens to be where my body ended up and where I feel good.  This entire discussion was started by me after reading so many posts about people being unhappy with their weight gain, or newly at maintainance and being fearful of staying there.  It is not about the final size or weight that is important.  It is not meant to pertain to post pregnancy weight gain.  It does not pertain to medication caused weight gain.  It is weight regain from eating foods that aren't healthy for us, and yet we eat them anyway. And, lastly, yes, certain foods are an addiction.  Your last statement is "The difference is control."  I have asked myself a thousand times as to why I can now say no to foods that I couldn't or didn't before.  The surgery did not give me a "will power transplant".  I am the same person, who, at least from an outside perspective, has contro over my eating.   At least on most days.  Why now, and not as a morbidly obese person.  I have to eat now, just as I did before.  Going cold turkey on food is still not an option.  The only answer I have for myself is that I am getting old.  I had lived a life of morbid obesity and immobility was in my immediate future.  There were no other options left to me.  Control is now here because I refuse to go back to my old way of life.  But, it is a daily fight, sometimes moment to moment fight. Thank you all for your insightful comments, and a good discussion. Debra M.

27 months after surgery, I was up 10 lbs. from my lowest weight, which was almost my goal.  I was laid off from a job last December, a job at which I was constantly moving.  I took a job in January where I sit the majority of the day and have not compensated for that movement.  Truth is, I hate exercise and didn't really do much of it during my weight loss period. My problem with "letting the tool work" is that my tool never really "worked".  Meaning I never felt full, never got sick if I ate something I shouldn't or too much.  I had to measure everything I ate and had to keep myself away from foods that I knew would not allow me to lose weight.  In short, I started "dieting" the first day I could actually eat food after the surgery.  Honestly, that sucked.  And it still sucks.  When I spoke with my nurse practioner about it (at every appt.) I was told that happens and I would just need to measure my food. I have been on Weigh****chers online for a week to keep myself accountable and I lost 5 lbs. this week - I am sure mostly water weight, as it is for most others.  I follow the protein first rules, and I am diligent about my supplements, I don't drink while I eat, I try to stick with whole grain carbs.  My labs have always been decent. I have been morbidly obese all of my life, so I am SO grateful to have this opportunity. and I will fight like hell to not gain this weight back.  My health is good and that is such a blessing.  But this has never been easy, and it is a struggle every day.  My head has never changed.  I want to eat if I am happy, I want to eat if I am sad, excited, depressed, celebrating.  But I will have to diet every single day of the rest of my life because my smaller stomach does not help me out at all. I guess I am trying to say it isn't just a matter of being willing or able to "follow the rules". I am and I am.  But it remains the hardest thing I have to do each day.  And I am sure I am not alone.

You know there are people that see you every day that must say to themselves, she took the easy way out? Isn't that the most obsurd thing you can think of after the statements you made here? How can anyone think this is easy? It's not. It's just very very different than the "outside" world.  I talked to myself before surgery because my psych eval was so useless...I asked myself over and over the same question "Will you give up ______ for this?" and put something in the blank. We never know exactly what we may be asked to give up. One friend can not eat chicken. One friend can not eat beef...Some have to measure all foods from now on like you. I did some heavy soul searching and decided whatever it is that I will have to give up...I'll do it. My biggest worry was beef since our family has been cattle raisers for centuries...But, that first steak was HEAVEN...Thank you Jesus, I didn't have to give that up..LOL. But even if it did have to go...I would have done it to be healthy and have my life back...For those who are not willing to give up a piece of birthday cake...Psh...Step out of line. I wouldn't have done this if the small stuff like that mattered to me so much.

a comment, barb...i have followed this discussion of deb's and do not feel that i can articulate my own thoughts( some days the brain just cannot work properly!!!) ....however i need to comment after your post...you are NOT alone..i am right there with ya...my tool doesn't work as well for me either- i started as a lightweight and my doc told me outright that he made my pouch a bit larger-gee thanks!!!! i still went thru this to lose weight, doc!!! i do have to "diet" everyday to try to get to my goal- and no-at 4 yrs out i have not gotten there yet...long story...some medical some mechanical some stress eating when i almost lost my hubby 3 times....anyhow- long story very short-you are not alone!!! thank you for saying what you did in a much better way than i can right now.....

To the extent the insurers and the doctors can, they attempt to weed the non-compliant people out. But I was also asked, if I can't follow a diet to completion, how do I expect to be successful after surgery? My psych evaluation was totally useless. They asked two questions. 1) were you ever molested as a child and 2) do you have support after surgery? I know of a man three weeks out when he decided no one was going to tell him what to eat so he just quit the soft foods diet and ate what he wanted. And as much as he wanted. When it hurt, he "applied" whiskey. Not smart, actually deadly, but when he dies someone, somewhere will say "See? WLS doesn't work. WLS kills people." Now the statement that the number on the scale is "irrefutable information." That is just not true. Terri R from the RNY board is the EXACT same size and height as I am. She works out with a trainer and is solid muscle. She weighs 165 (of course, this was before plastics). She's considered obese on the graph but she is anything BUT obese. I weigh 122 and change...I'm considered low end on the BMI scale. It's just not the same at all. She's not fat, I'm too skinny and yet we are compared on the same scale and same graph. Simple thing: muscle weighs more than fat. The number on the scale is not honest. It can't tell if you are a fit size 4 or a flabby size 4..But a size 4 at 5 ft 5 inches tall...Her or me...Same. The number on the scale is much different. I can discuss the reason for the "instant will power" issue. When I first started out I had a baby pouch and it was tender. I couldn't stretch my abs without hurting myself (which I did because I tried to do too much too soon) and when I tried to eat something that my pouch wasn't ready for too soon, I got smacked. Like a dog with a newspaper and a new found respect for being "trained". It worked. And months limiting my sugar intake to ZERO didn't hurt either. I believe at least a portion of the dumping might be the fact that we don't eat sugar for so long that our system becomes sensitive to it. So when we do become non-compliant and eat something sugar laden, dump...It doesn't take too long before we keep to the right spot and keep to the right food and the more we stay in the right, the less able we are to tolerate it when we do stray...It's a new, artificial willpower. At least for me. I hate dumping and so I will do anything in my power NOT to dump...My own built in newspaper to the nose. Yeah, I might be okay with some things with sugar or fat in them or I may not. I'm just no longer willing to take the chance that I'm going to be smacked on the nose (barf or get diahrea in a public place). I've set my own personal standards alot higher after WLS. I won't eat less than wonderful food...My picky little pouch gets nothing but the best that I can give it...Before I'd eat all sorts of questionable things...Not anymore. Thankfully every day there are more and more sugar free and reduced sugar options coming on the market so that I can still enjoy eating, even occasional treats (so long as I don't over do because even sugar free isn't "dump free" with me).  I can totally agree on the never going back. I weigh myself twice a day and journal my food obsessively...I will never go back or if I do, it will be kicking and screaming the whole time.  See ya around the graduates board.  Dawn

When I say the number on the scale doesn't lie, I mean as it only refers to me.  I would never compare my fitness or flabbiness at a certain weight or size to someone else.  I do work out, but would not consider myself very strong or muscular, as I do have my limitations due to years of joint disease in the knees and shoulders.  I wish I could run, but I can't.  My scale is only meant as the ultimate tool of honesty for ME, therefore it gives me irrefutable information.  My weight and BMI are not to be compared with anyone else. I agree with what you said about the "instant will power", but the will power infusion question that I now have,  is why do I have it at three years out.  Now, when I could eat whatever I wanted, although in smaller amounts, I still have to have the control to say no.  And for whatever reason, I do have that power. Debra M.

Hi Debra, Congrats to you for success in your weight loss.  Being a person who had a 42# weight gain I admit that I was a little offended when I first started reading your post; however, the more I read it the less offended I felt.   I see that you did not intend to be critical or judgemental.  I agree with what you are sayiing about the rules because I have said the same things to myself at one time or another.  I have no excuses for my weight gain. I knew that wls is not a magic bullet. I was never delusional, believing that you can't regain...etc.  I knew what I needed to do to be successful at long-term weight loss.  I was given this marvelous tool to use and I just didn't use it properly.   I did my last "start-over" last January, lost 27# and have maintained for almost a year.  This was very difficult and I realize if I had stuck to the rules from the beginning, I would not have had to face a regain and the difficulty of trying to lose again.   After reading the rest of your post and some of the responses, I have decided to bookmark your post as a reminder to remember the rules so thai I can continue losing the weight and keeping it off..  If you haven't already, I think you should post this on the main boards as well.  I think it would be helpful advice for those that are beginning their journey.  Again, congrats to your amazing weight loss.  May you have continued success. Good luck and many blessings.

Congratulations to you too, Char.  You not only committed yourself the first time, in spite of your regain, you have come back even stronger.   I am so grateful you did not take offense, as I was not intending to cast stones at anyone.  I know that regain is possible at any time to anyone.  I thought about my original post for a couple of weeks before I posted, to try to find the words in my heart that I was feeling.  I think the 5 day pouch test is a great idea to get people restarted on their weight loss, but my idea was how to get across to new graduates that they need to keep doing what they've been doing during their weight loss so you never need the 5DPT.  There isn't much difference between how I eat now, and when I was losing.  I probably eat just a little more.  That still doesn't mean I don't want my old foods.  I went to Costco yesterday with my husband, and the huge packages of candy, chips, junk, were calling my name.  Loudly.  I told my husband that looking at that food makes me wish I didn't have surgery.  No, I don't really mean it, but there are moments I wish I could eat all that stuff. If I say one more time that this isn't easy, I'll scream at myself. Best of luck to you Char, and thanks for your response. I don't usually post on the main board anymore.  There are so many posts, things tend to get buried quickly, and, it seems tempers over there flare up pretty easily. Debra M.