Big Medicine Discussion: Do women suffer more for being obese? This is long!!

Marcy; I see you have only just begun your journey.  I'd like to recommend that you get photos taken as you go--you'll be amazed at the changes that will happen so rapidly!! When you lose to close to your goal weight, get a full length mirror!  You'll be amazed at how great it'll make you feel to see how great you're looking! Good luck!

Marney- WOW! I can't believe how much of what you said resonates with me, and I'm just so thankful to have this discussion. You're a brave woman to put all of that out there on the table, I'm so thankful that you did. I wish I had your strong sense of self and self-esteem. While I'm not a "mess", I definitely have a lot of insecurity. To touch on a few points you made, I'm a 37 year old single woman. I dated someone one time in high school, and it was when I was a size 10. Since that time, I've been heavy, anywhere from a size 22/24 (at almost 6 feet tall myself...I was actually looking pretty good at this size!) to my pre-op size of 30/32 (where I felt 100% invisible to men, dating-wise). I'm currently a 26/28, and don't even think about dating until I lose another 100 pounds (and sadly, probably get plastic surgery). At least not thinking about it keeps the expectations in check. I don't feel womanly yet, but I'm getting closer. My married friends are always trying to fix up a mutual single friend, but they have never tried to fix me up. My one friend, who has a few matchmaking successes under her belt, tells me how she's trying to fix up our mutual friend, and I wonder if she ever thinks about my feelings when she's telling me this. I don't blame her, per se, because even her husband, who is an all around great guy and a VERY good friend of mine, wouldn't date me. I'm too big (the height definitely is a double whammy..this I know). It's harder to be tall and fat...you come off like an Amazon. He likes short, little women (his wife is 5'1 and 115 pounds). What bothers me most is that even though we're very good friends, he doesn't even hug me. He's often put his arm around our mutual single friend (another small, thin woman), but he wouldn't think of putting his arm around me. And I don't understand why. If only guys knew that a little physical affection (even just friendly) makes a fat woman feel like a woman. One guy we know refers to me as "dude" because of my size (I don't look like a guy, by the way!!). Could there be anything more callous? My fat makes me not even rank as a woman??? As for the comments you've heard, thank god I haven't heard as many. I used to be a too-curious person when I was younger. I always wanted to know what everyone thought of me. This is when I was a teenager mostly, and had nothing to do with my weight. Just did this person like me; what things did they say behind my back, etc. And the answers weren't necessarily bad. It was more of me trying to figure myself and others out. At some age, I stopped wanting to know the answers. Now at 37, I'd pay money NOT to know what other people think about me. Even my very best friends...who I know love me...I don't want to know how they think I look, what they think about how much I ate pre-op, whether they'd date me, etc. Nothing good can possibly come from that information. And to think about what society at large is thinking...I do not want to know. Luckily, I don't get unsolicited comments too often. I was a popular kid within my social circle (in elementary school, the big threat was that if someone messed with one of my friends, "Beth would sit on you!". In a weird way and while a little hurtful, for the most part, my size was either not a factor, but maybe even an asset (especially my height). But outside that circle, I suffered a bit of pain, teasing, and hurt; but for the most part, I was a pretty happy, well-adjusted kid (who loved to eat!).  As I got older, and guys and girls started dating, my life got much worse. I hated high school. The guy whose locker was next to mine in high school was a cute guy who I liked, but I knew better than to ever express that to him. Well, one of my stupid friends put a note in his locker telling him I liked him and gave him my phone number. Cut to Friday night when one of his friends called me at home, with a bunch of guys in the background, to tell me they got the note. After leading me on for a couple of minutes, they wanted to know how much I weighed and what my pants size was (while laughing hysterically in the background). I was mortified. This just sort of typified my high school experience. I asked a friend to the prom. He said no. You know the story. Never went to any of the school dances or parties. As for dating, I'm never asked out, even though I work in a male-populated workplace. I look around at all of the heavy women who are married, and wonder how they got the men they have. And I think there's a lot to be said about attracting someone when you're thinner and then gaining weight in the relationship. Once the guy loves you for you, maybe he will be hooked. But, it's a shame that the thinner body is what it takes for him to see the real me. My own brother, who I am VERY close with, would never date someone my size. He is attracted to little, skinny women; and despite the fact that he knows me heart; it wouldn't be enough to overcome my size. I've struggled with this fact. Same for my best male friend. I'm good enough to be friends with, to laugh with, to talk with, and to trust; but I'm not good enough to date. It hurts. Tried the on-line dating thing (E-Harmony). I would have nice conversations until my photo was revealed. Then, nothing. So then I used the tact of putting my picture out there immediately. No one started a conversation. The picture was enough for them to say no. I  wasn't even an option, even though we were similar in so many ways. Being a fat woman in this society is tough. Not letting it affect your self-esteem is, for me, tougher. After a while of being constantly rejected, it does take a toll. I'm trying to fight the good fight, but I am tired... -Beth

Beth:  Thank you for sharing everything. Your last sentence was especially moving, personal, poignant, and exactly the way I feel. Trying to fight the good fight, but I'm tired ....I retracted all of my personals. I couldn't take  several rejections a day anymore.  I understood exactly  about it being so hurtful when you are known and respected in every way by the men in your life, but it's still not enough to conquer their image of your weight. It hurts so terribly. No matter how perfect, how nice, funny, cool, smart, witty, insightful. spiritual, caring, generous, strong....none of it matters when you've committed the unforgivable sin of being fat.  Hope all goes well with you as you're trying to get approved for surgery!  Marney

This is a wonderful post and struck a chord with me as well.  I was always very thin and tiny until I married and my ex-husband was extremely physically abusive.  I dealt with it by eating and then finally got brave enough to get out.  However, by that time I was already over 200 pounds.  (I'm short).  Since that time, when I have tried to venture into dating, I can't begin to mention how awful it has been.  One man took me out to dinner and then told me (over a glass of wine) how much he liked really fat women and I could even stand to gain a little (I was 210 at the time).  When I told him at the end of the night I wasn't interested in dating him, he looked at me, shocked, and then stated that I could expect to be alone - that no one would want me unless it was someone like him. Recently, one of my mom's friends tried to set me up with her soon - who was twice my size (about 400 pounds) and had just had a RNY surgery a few weeks before.  She thought we would have lots to talk about and the struggles with weight might be a common bond.  Can you believe this man looked at me at the end of the night and said, "I'm losing weight - I just would never want to date a fat woman."  I was 198, less than 1/2 his weight.  He was huge.   I was obviously way too fat for him and there was a complete double standard - fine for him, not for the woman.   I've tried the church thing, no luck.  I would never be brave enough to try internet dating because I know without a doubt what the response would be.  Part of me is so angry and hurt because if I lose the weight after my revision and somebody wants me then - well the knowledge that they never would have looked at me twice now, is just so hard to take. I think one of the things that hurt me the most though was a very dear friend.  I've known her since I was 5 and we were "tiny little things" together all through school (were lucky to be 105 pounds wet).  Anyway, she came to visit me recently from Wisconsin.  We were in a fitting room and she was trying on jeans (she wears probably a 0, and she turned and looked at me - not nastifly, just matter of fact and said, "You know, I just never get used to it - I never think of you as fat and then every time I look up and see you, I'm just so shocked to see you standing there so fat.  It just doesn't even look like you."  I was SO hurt.  Then about 2 weeks later, she and a whole bunch of the girls from school planned a one week Caribbean cruise.  All so excited.  I wasn't invited.  I finally got brave and asked why.  She said she just know how uncomfortable I would be if I went - the swimsuits and all.  Now I had just gone on a cruise last year with my daughter and had been out by the pool every day, shorts, swimsuits, went horseback riding, etc.  This friend knew this.  It was very clear to me that she felt I would dampen the experience for all the rest of the girls, by the pool, lounges, guys, etc. - It would be "having someone fat along."  This was my best friend - for 45 years.   What is it that people think because you are heavy, you don't have feelings?

*hugs* for you Charleston Mom. I must say, so far as my friends go, I've never had an ounce of discouragement or trouble regarding my weight. They've always been very encouraging and talked me up.

I am quoting Mary Jo's post from several posts back. I know some people skip through posts, and I didn't want hers to get missed. It didn't show up in the quote box, because it would have then just gotten posted right smack in the middle again. Post Date: 7/16/07 8:47 am On July 15, 2007 at 8:51 PM Pacific Time, mjo wrote: To all of you...this is Mary Jo from the show. I am a psychotherapist and I posed the question on the forum for big medicine. It is unfortuante that tomorrow nights show does not go in to detail of all the things I said. I talked about the research backing my comment about women struggling with more psychological trauma due to weight issues then men do (in our society). It is well documented in the literature...and it seems to hold true with my practice. I am concerned mostly because it is only touched on in the show and somewhat jokingly. The show is concerned with ratings and so it is important for them to cover that. I am concerned as there are more children who struggle with obesity and my concern is we (as a medical community) first of all have to recognize that there is a difference and then do something about it. I work with men and women separately in groups at present. Men's issues are so much different then women's. I wanted to know how you all felt about it. I have obese, overweight, overfat girlfriends (a term they like me to use) who tell me when they go out guys never come up to them due to their weight. I have seen this and believe it. On the show it makes it look like men have the same concerns. But yet....many of the people I hang out with are with obese men and they don't seem to judge them the same way. What is up with that? Thanks...mjo The post by MJo immediately following: Post Date: 7/15/07 8:49 pm Mike, Mary jo from the show here...thanks for responding to this forum. I have worked with Men in groups and women. Men seem to go through the process so much differently then women. Do you believe women have more shame in response to their obesity? The literature says we (women ) are judged more harshly because of the whole beauty thing. My sisters and friends are beautiful, but also overfat. They are totally rejected by men. I just am trying to understand. If you have more insights, please respond. For right now, I have to agree with the research that supports women are judged more harshly then men with the same problem. How could a society help to change things? For all of you...that is the question...what are our solutions. Thanks all of you...mjo Some of my own thoughts: I was thinking about this more last night and wonder if part of what MJo was getting at is this: Let's consider all things equal between a particular man and a certain woman. Same BMI, background, difficulties. They encounter the same situation where they are mistreated or rejected because of their weight. Does the woman suffer more because her idenity and sense of worth is based more on how others view her and on her perception of beauty is intrinsicially tied to sense of self...where for a man, this might just be a mere facet of who he is and not a core part of his idenity. So, it's not just are women judged more harshly, but when a man and woman recieve equal judgement regarding weight will the woman internalize it more negatively than a man? I also quoted MJo's post since it is way on up there in the thread, wanted to make sure it got seen since she took the time to "come on over" here to OH and read through all our posts, when it was she who started this original discussion over  on the Big Medicine messageboard.

Marney,  you are thinking exactly what I am saying the literature says. It supports that all things being equal...women suffer more because of the whole society thing that tells men and women that women must be beautiful to be desired. I have seen many wealthy overweight men get dates with beautiful women. I know many wealthy overweight women and that does not hold true. In the show tonight there are several factors regarding the boy who was going to get banded at the age of 15 (the show says 16., we evaluated him when he was 14) girls at 15 are a lot more mature then a guy at 15. A woman at 15 has gone on numerous diets...that is usually not true for a boy who is overweight. I am just cautious more so with people under the age of 18yrs.  Most of the post-op suicides I see are women who sabotage men...and lastly men are more successful at suicide then women. Something is going on, and there is a true difference in men and women's messages from society in regards to obesity. Thanks very much...mjo

I've had several men say they couldn't get dates when they were obese, but then they met their wives or the few women who would date them took the time to get to know them first. There are exceptions, but for most women, even after the men get to know you, there will be no dating...no matter how attracted to your personality. I see your point about a teen girl has already tried dieting several times by the time she's in her mid/late teens. In addition to the maturity factor, a girl is most likely done growing by the time she's 17. A male is not.  Are you saying the post op suicides are men who were sabotaged by women? I am not sure I am getting your point there.

Marney, women attempt suicide more then men. However men complete the act more then women. More obese women actually complete the act then total average of women who complete it total. Obesity is seen to women as hopeless...depression...etc....It is a major reason for them engaging in suicide. Men rarely use that as a reason for suicide. obesity does not limit a man's social interaction as it does a woman. One of the underlying issues of suicide is isolation. Hope this helps...mjo

Marney, you have very well conveyed a lot of feelings and experiences in your post.  I haven't experienced the same in society as a heavy person; most of my own emotional struggles with my weight were a result of my family.  I didn't feel valued.  I have a physically beautiful family - my father's side.  The women are so naturally beautiful and I have always felt like an outcast... always looking impeccable.  My sisters take after my Dad's side and I take after my Mom.  My Mom is beautiful, yes, but in later years she gained weight and now that she is older she has diabetes which is insulin dependent, and had triple heart bypass surgery several years ago.  She really looks and feels awful. I am more laid-back and casual... and I was chubby or fat for part of my childhood - then normal weight until a few years after having my daughter.  Even at a normal weight I still felt like I was all stomach. My Dad left my Mom for another woman who he hasd now been married to for 18 years.  My Mom started gaining weight - while there is more to it than weight issues, it really gets to me.   I love my family... they are good people... my post certainly doesn't do any justice to them. My Mom's health is one of the main prompts for my own surgery.  My Dad, is oddly enough, another major prompt.  I feel like a failure in his eyes.  Yes, he loves me... and it's probably more in my mind than anything, but I feel like the family "embarrassment". I have had some great relationships over the years - with some amazing people and my family doesn't "get it".  They don't understand how people in general (let alone the people I attract) can see me as someone "worthwhile".  And with them it's sooo based on looks.  Sure, my family knows I am in an intelligent person... but they are so into appearances and they don't understand why I wouldn't want to make myself proper looking. My Mom's family, although I am not as close to them, are very down-to-earth and they don't look at people in the say way as my Dad's family. It's interesting how we develop as people.  In school I was well-known - I wouldn't say I was "popular" but guys liked me... and I had lots of friends. One guy I have been seeing most recently contacted me on the internet.  It was funny because the first time we met was in middle school.  I was in 7th grade and he was in 9th.  He was one of the rowdy 9th grade boys... many girls seemed to like the bad boys.  Ha ha ha!  I told one of my friend's I thought he was cute and of course word got around... and the next day he came up to my locker and said "hi" to me.  I just said "hi" and giggled like a typical 12 year old would.  He never really said much to me after that.  I figured that he probably thought I was too young and giggly. Then back in February I get an e-mail from him.  We caught up with each other a bit and he wanted to go out... I told him - "I am heavy now".  He told me that he wasn't into girls that were not thin... he told me this point blank.  He then said... "I liked you for a while in school and I was pretty shy about it."  And he said, "I like your personality now and I really would like to see you".  I was shocked to hear that HE was SHY!  Afterall, he was one of the guys that a lot of girls liked - and he was always in trouble - doing things in class.  He said that it was always part of his attention-seeking behavior.  Not only that... I was in 7th grade and he was in 9th!  I reminded him that he said "hi" to me at my locker and nothing else.  But I "laughed" at him - and he knew other guys liked me... and thought that maybe someone told him that to be funny.  One thing it might help to understand is that I was voted on by this series of guys that I had the nicest "A$$" in the school.  Ha ha ha!  Soon a different 9th grade boy had asked me out and we were together for most of that year... kids!  :-) I didn't tell him right away... about my plans to have surgery... but maybe about a week of talking I explained my plans for surgery and I told him that I wasn't really up for dating or a relationship at this time - because I am trying to get my act together, and I am not looking for a friend with benefits sort of thing.  He said he wasn't looking for that either... he wants a relationship - blah blah.  Well... after a few months he convinced me to go out with him.  I have to say he looks quite the same - except his hair is a little shorter than it was back then - and he his still thin, just more man-like.  As for me... I am a blonde now and I am not thin!  He likes me... and that makes me feel good.  He has never been out with a heavy girl... but he admits that he needs to grow up and look passed that... and somehow he does. Now... I am not saying we are going to get married or anything... I am certainly not ready for that - or even a committed relationship for that matter - I like my space.  Even though I am not seeing anyone else at this time - he is not my "boyfriend"... I call him my "love interest"... because maybe some day - but I am just not ready right now.  I want this time to be "just me" - I feel that I need it... to grow.   Anyway... your post was amazing to read.  My story is a lot different from yours in a lot of ways.  It's also difficult when you don't have acceptance from your family.  They should be your building block.  I feel blessed with having the self-esteem I have, considering!  Again, I love my family... but they sure don't make things easy! I wish you the best! Edited:  I also wanted to add that I was molested by a cousin 11 years older than me.  Rape was addressed in your initial post.  He was supposed to take care of me when I was a teen when my Dad would go away on his trips after my parents divorced.  I want to say that I feel that rape or molestation has more to do with self-esteem when the attacker is known - I don't feel its a matter of being obese or thin.  I was normal weight during the time this happened."