Assertiveness and personal boundary setting
As many of you know from my ???????? thread and several other threads, I have been having a dust-up with some of the negative influences on the board. The following is my last post on that thread:
"Okay, I have a confession to make!
I have been having a good time practicing setting my personal boundaries with the bullies here. Many people have trouble with knowing what their boundaries are, let alone with setting them. It takes a lot of work to learn assertiveness and how to respond rather than react.
I think healthy boundaries are essential to maintaining a sense of personal integrity, and that is often a central issue with us eating disordered folks.
Just ignoring or putting up with abuse doesn't work in our personal lives. Neither does attacking back on the same level. We must find a way to protect ourselves and our sense of self in a workable way. Overeating and other addictions are obviously not workable, so what is?
So I have been having a good time practicing not taking things personally and being calmly assertive over and over and over. The other guy isn't going to change, trust me, I have no illusions about that. But I can work with myself.
So thanks, especially to those who play without a full deck and cheaply, for giving me such great material to play with!
Thank you to all of you who have offered constructive support. One does find out who the true friends are in this journey.
I will now ignore the bullies and the negative, unless, of course, I don't. I may need to practice again!"
What do you think about workable personal boundaries? Are they important? Are they helpful?
"Okay, I have a confession to make!
I have been having a good time practicing setting my personal boundaries with the bullies here. Many people have trouble with knowing what their boundaries are, let alone with setting them. It takes a lot of work to learn assertiveness and how to respond rather than react.
I think healthy boundaries are essential to maintaining a sense of personal integrity, and that is often a central issue with us eating disordered folks.
Just ignoring or putting up with abuse doesn't work in our personal lives. Neither does attacking back on the same level. We must find a way to protect ourselves and our sense of self in a workable way. Overeating and other addictions are obviously not workable, so what is?
So I have been having a good time practicing not taking things personally and being calmly assertive over and over and over. The other guy isn't going to change, trust me, I have no illusions about that. But I can work with myself.
So thanks, especially to those who play without a full deck and cheaply, for giving me such great material to play with!
Thank you to all of you who have offered constructive support. One does find out who the true friends are in this journey.
I will now ignore the bullies and the negative, unless, of course, I don't. I may need to practice again!"
What do you think about workable personal boundaries? Are they important? Are they helpful?
"What the caterpillar calls the end of the world, the master calls the butterfly." Richard Bach
"Support fosters your growth. If you are getting enough of the right support, you will experience a major transformation in yourself. You will discover a sense of empowerment and peace you have never before experienced. You will come to believe you can overcome your challenges and find some joy in this world." Katie Jay
I have found in 30 years of working with addicts that having "boundaries" is the absolute key to recovery. To give up my drug of choice (carbs, cocaine, alcohol, gambling, rage -- whatever), I have to first, have a firm definition of what constitutes recovery. NO USE, NO EXCUSES. When I play around with excuses - or when I start to blur the boundaries -- is when the misery starts.
I have also found that I have to have very firm idea (boundary) as to what influences I let in my life. I have let go of any and all relationships that don't feel positive or that drain me. That has included some people I am related to. That has included friendships. That has included my activities on this and other websites.
I have stopped fighting battles that have no meaning or that I can't win. There is enough stress and negativity that falls in my lap without my seeking it out. I know through reading research and through personal experience that negativity and rage creates more of the same, and that love and nurturing creates more of the same -- so I try (with occasional success) to put positive energy out into the world because that's what I want back. As Gandhi (sp?) so famously said "Be the change you want to see in the world." I want to see world peace. So I make an attempt to create peace in my own little corner of the world. If someone wants to create chaos or hurt, that's on them, but I will do my best to avoid that person.
One of the things that can trigger me to eat is anger. Having boundaries around what I will or will not tolerate from others is key to my own recovery. Two key factors are 1) my relationship with the other person (is it someone I care about? someone I have to work with?) and 2) what I sense is the other person's motive for the behavior. If I sense that the purpose of your behavior is to hurt or to feed your own ego, I'm out of there -- I don't care who you are.
If I teach my clients anything, I hope it is about boundaries and the importance of caring for themselves in a way that is effective and respectful. There will always be those who will, for various reasons, want to bring you down. Seek out those who will lift you up and help you fly.
I have also found that I have to have very firm idea (boundary) as to what influences I let in my life. I have let go of any and all relationships that don't feel positive or that drain me. That has included some people I am related to. That has included friendships. That has included my activities on this and other websites.
I have stopped fighting battles that have no meaning or that I can't win. There is enough stress and negativity that falls in my lap without my seeking it out. I know through reading research and through personal experience that negativity and rage creates more of the same, and that love and nurturing creates more of the same -- so I try (with occasional success) to put positive energy out into the world because that's what I want back. As Gandhi (sp?) so famously said "Be the change you want to see in the world." I want to see world peace. So I make an attempt to create peace in my own little corner of the world. If someone wants to create chaos or hurt, that's on them, but I will do my best to avoid that person.
One of the things that can trigger me to eat is anger. Having boundaries around what I will or will not tolerate from others is key to my own recovery. Two key factors are 1) my relationship with the other person (is it someone I care about? someone I have to work with?) and 2) what I sense is the other person's motive for the behavior. If I sense that the purpose of your behavior is to hurt or to feed your own ego, I'm out of there -- I don't care who you are.
If I teach my clients anything, I hope it is about boundaries and the importance of caring for themselves in a way that is effective and respectful. There will always be those who will, for various reasons, want to bring you down. Seek out those who will lift you up and help you fly.
I agree wholeheartedly with what you are saying so thoughtfully and well!
Sometimes we can't avoid the negative people- so how do we learn to dance with the negativity or the abuse or our own uncomfortable feelings so that we don't let them overpower us or make us retreat to old unworkable ways of coping? How do we keep practicing our personal boundaries? Because it does take practice, practice, practice on a lifelong basis, just like self care and weight maintenance and health maintenance and relationship work.
How do we turn **** into fertilizer? How do we empower ourselves?
Sometimes we can't avoid the negative people- so how do we learn to dance with the negativity or the abuse or our own uncomfortable feelings so that we don't let them overpower us or make us retreat to old unworkable ways of coping? How do we keep practicing our personal boundaries? Because it does take practice, practice, practice on a lifelong basis, just like self care and weight maintenance and health maintenance and relationship work.
How do we turn **** into fertilizer? How do we empower ourselves?
"What the caterpillar calls the end of the world, the master calls the butterfly." Richard Bach
"Support fosters your growth. If you are getting enough of the right support, you will experience a major transformation in yourself. You will discover a sense of empowerment and peace you have never before experienced. You will come to believe you can overcome your challenges and find some joy in this world." Katie Jay
oh, dear, not sure what-all to say much less where to start. 
I know that the stronger/better/healthier I feel the less I worry about what other people say and the less I see it as them trying to cross over my boundaries.
although a discussion about boundaries in general can be useful, at the moment it is drowned out by the noise of you asserting yourself with people who see themselves as asserting themselves right back.
keep in mind I can't see anyone who has be blocked so I am not necessarily seeing all the posts.
what I am trying to point out - as kindly as I can - is that you seem to have been reacting rather than responding.
when extremely sane and kind people - like Lynn, for example - tell you something it's worth paying attention to.
that's all I got.
I know that the stronger/better/healthier I feel the less I worry about what other people say and the less I see it as them trying to cross over my boundaries.
although a discussion about boundaries in general can be useful, at the moment it is drowned out by the noise of you asserting yourself with people who see themselves as asserting themselves right back.
keep in mind I can't see anyone who has be blocked so I am not necessarily seeing all the posts.
what I am trying to point out - as kindly as I can - is that you seem to have been reacting rather than responding.
when extremely sane and kind people - like Lynn, for example - tell you something it's worth paying attention to.
that's all I got.
once upon a time I had a group to talk about Binge Eating Disorder, and later one about Clean Eating.
PM me if you are interested in either of these.
size 8, life is great
Hi, Jackie!
Thanks for your thoughtful input!
What's important is my boundaries- I can't change the other guy, and have no intention of doing so. I can learn to stand my ground, and that does take a lot of practice- and courage. It's also important to learn to not take thing personally, and again, that takes practice.
Sometimes in our lives we cannot avoid the negative and the attacks- so how do we learn to deal with them? How do we learn to be our own advocates in the face of opposition, or worse, abuse?
Most times the process and the practice of boundary setting is difficult, uncomfortable, and often noisy. How do we keep our sense of self in the storm? How do we learn to say no, and mean it? How can we learn to be the calm within the storm, and in the process learn to take loving and firm care of ourselves? And out of that, take loving and firm care of each other?
We can't learn anything without practicing, and making lots of mistakes in the process. Ice skaters have to learn how to fall, and the only way to get there is to fall over and over and over and over. The trick is getting up one more time than you fall.
I think all of this is vital to learning how to maintain successfully after WLS, or, indeed, to how to live life itself.
And- how do we learn to choose our battles carefully!?!?!
Thanks for your thoughtful input!
What's important is my boundaries- I can't change the other guy, and have no intention of doing so. I can learn to stand my ground, and that does take a lot of practice- and courage. It's also important to learn to not take thing personally, and again, that takes practice.
Sometimes in our lives we cannot avoid the negative and the attacks- so how do we learn to deal with them? How do we learn to be our own advocates in the face of opposition, or worse, abuse?
Most times the process and the practice of boundary setting is difficult, uncomfortable, and often noisy. How do we keep our sense of self in the storm? How do we learn to say no, and mean it? How can we learn to be the calm within the storm, and in the process learn to take loving and firm care of ourselves? And out of that, take loving and firm care of each other?
We can't learn anything without practicing, and making lots of mistakes in the process. Ice skaters have to learn how to fall, and the only way to get there is to fall over and over and over and over. The trick is getting up one more time than you fall.
I think all of this is vital to learning how to maintain successfully after WLS, or, indeed, to how to live life itself.
And- how do we learn to choose our battles carefully!?!?!
"What the caterpillar calls the end of the world, the master calls the butterfly." Richard Bach
"Support fosters your growth. If you are getting enough of the right support, you will experience a major transformation in yourself. You will discover a sense of empowerment and peace you have never before experienced. You will come to believe you can overcome your challenges and find some joy in this world." Katie Jay
(deactivated member)
on 9/10/11 8:23 am
on 9/10/11 8:23 am
Serious question here. How do you determine that something is an attack rather than just people having a strong difference of opinion? And as a follow up, what type post do you consider to be negative? Oh, I guess I have one more question, do you perhaps take on the perceived negativity of others even when it's not directed at you?
I ask these questions because the battles between bullies and victims and cranky people and Pollyannas seems to be prevalent of late. And frankly I just have not seen what I consider bullying.
I've seen arguments, I've seen posters who clearly don't like each other, but I haven't seen anyone that I felt was being picked on. I've seen snarky posts and snarky responses but the sides have appeared to be pretty evenly matched.
I get that you want to set boundaries but you can only set them for yourself, you can't tell anyone else what is acceptable and what isn't. So why put yourself through something like this? I understand about change and personal growth but shouldn't there be a real point to it? Is winning a cyber argument really fodder for growth? Shouldn't it be more meaningful than an internet contretemps?
I don't know, I guess I'm just not getting all the sound and fury over what amounts to very little. There just doesn't seem to be anything at stake here.
I ask these questions because the battles between bullies and victims and cranky people and Pollyannas seems to be prevalent of late. And frankly I just have not seen what I consider bullying.
I've seen arguments, I've seen posters who clearly don't like each other, but I haven't seen anyone that I felt was being picked on. I've seen snarky posts and snarky responses but the sides have appeared to be pretty evenly matched.
I get that you want to set boundaries but you can only set them for yourself, you can't tell anyone else what is acceptable and what isn't. So why put yourself through something like this? I understand about change and personal growth but shouldn't there be a real point to it? Is winning a cyber argument really fodder for growth? Shouldn't it be more meaningful than an internet contretemps?
I don't know, I guess I'm just not getting all the sound and fury over what amounts to very little. There just doesn't seem to be anything at stake here.
I think the difference between opinion and attack is that attack is personal and ad hominem ("Ad hominem (Latin "to the man", "to the person"), short for argumentum ad hominem, is an attempt to negate the truth of a claim by pointing out a negative characteristic or belief of the person advocating it." Wikipedia) The attack has nothing to do with the issue being discussed, and is disparaging and a personal put down.
That is what I consider negative, and I have seen it over and over directed at other people, as well as experienced it, on this board. I have been called nasty names and worse. Someone was recently flamed off the board as a result. I have been PMed with hate messages. I have gotten PMs from people *****port the same. I know several people who won't come near this forum because of it. I don't like it when I or others get that treatment, nor do I or they deserve it.
I hope I don't take on the perceived negativity- that is what I am trying not to do. And I do think healthy boundaries are very important. Practicing them is important. It is not about winning an argument, it is about being very redundantly clear about "That doesn't work for me."
I am of the opinion that a lot is at stake, especially our own recovery and health.
That is what I consider negative, and I have seen it over and over directed at other people, as well as experienced it, on this board. I have been called nasty names and worse. Someone was recently flamed off the board as a result. I have been PMed with hate messages. I have gotten PMs from people *****port the same. I know several people who won't come near this forum because of it. I don't like it when I or others get that treatment, nor do I or they deserve it.
I hope I don't take on the perceived negativity- that is what I am trying not to do. And I do think healthy boundaries are very important. Practicing them is important. It is not about winning an argument, it is about being very redundantly clear about "That doesn't work for me."
I am of the opinion that a lot is at stake, especially our own recovery and health.
"What the caterpillar calls the end of the world, the master calls the butterfly." Richard Bach
"Support fosters your growth. If you are getting enough of the right support, you will experience a major transformation in yourself. You will discover a sense of empowerment and peace you have never before experienced. You will come to believe you can overcome your challenges and find some joy in this world." Katie Jay
(deactivated member)
on 9/10/11 9:59 pm
on 9/10/11 9:59 pm
Uhmm, okay, thanks for the definition but I know what ad hominem means. So should I suppose that you were being a bully towards me and trying to indicate that I might not be smart enough to understand your reply without Wiki-powered explanations? Should I feel offended that you seem to think that you are more intelligent than I?
Should I start several more posts on the subject and claim that I am fighting for all the stupid and uneducated fatties that you have attacked with your slighting reference to my percieved lack of knowledge? Should I claim that you ignored my sincere question and instead pointed out what you see as a negative characteristic of mine?
Whittering on about bullies and boundaries and assertion is not making you a hero. It is making you more than a little tiresome. You can claim that you do this as a part of personal growth but I see your actions as a retardant to real growth. I would argue that your obvious need to have the last word with people you don't know and will never meet and who are not a part of your real life is far from healthy. But your experience on OH is up to you. You can craft it to be anything you want it to be. Apparently you prefer a negative experience and that's fine, it's your choice. Just know that you are not getting buy in from the majority of the people *****ad your posts. We would far more impressed with your growth and maturity if you just learned to let things go.
Should I start several more posts on the subject and claim that I am fighting for all the stupid and uneducated fatties that you have attacked with your slighting reference to my percieved lack of knowledge? Should I claim that you ignored my sincere question and instead pointed out what you see as a negative characteristic of mine?
Whittering on about bullies and boundaries and assertion is not making you a hero. It is making you more than a little tiresome. You can claim that you do this as a part of personal growth but I see your actions as a retardant to real growth. I would argue that your obvious need to have the last word with people you don't know and will never meet and who are not a part of your real life is far from healthy. But your experience on OH is up to you. You can craft it to be anything you want it to be. Apparently you prefer a negative experience and that's fine, it's your choice. Just know that you are not getting buy in from the majority of the people *****ad your posts. We would far more impressed with your growth and maturity if you just learned to let things go.
finigan, I certainly didn't mean for you to feel that I was putting you or anyone else down, and I apologise for my part in making you feel that way. I also certainly have no interest in taking on causes for anyone but myself, nor am I interested in being any kind of hero. I was trying to answer what I thought were your honest questions.
I am interested in creating my own boundaries, and I am interested in constructive conversation. Perhaps I am bumbling in the way I go about saying my piece, but that is my point- that creating my own world takes practice. I am not always, actually usually, going to get the response I want, and learning to stand one's ground neither aggressively nor passively is useful and I think, very important.
Your message is an example of ad hominem.
I am interested in creating my own boundaries, and I am interested in constructive conversation. Perhaps I am bumbling in the way I go about saying my piece, but that is my point- that creating my own world takes practice. I am not always, actually usually, going to get the response I want, and learning to stand one's ground neither aggressively nor passively is useful and I think, very important.
Your message is an example of ad hominem.
"What the caterpillar calls the end of the world, the master calls the butterfly." Richard Bach
"Support fosters your growth. If you are getting enough of the right support, you will experience a major transformation in yourself. You will discover a sense of empowerment and peace you have never before experienced. You will come to believe you can overcome your challenges and find some joy in this world." Katie Jay
(deactivated member)
on 9/11/11 12:13 am
on 9/11/11 12:13 am
My message is far from ad hominem. I did not seek to deflect from a weak argument by pointing out false negative characteristics. I told the truth. This nonsense is tiresome, you are setting meaningless boundaries, most people don't support you. That is not ad hominem, that is fact.
I'm going to teach you how being an adult and interacting in a healthy manner on an internet forum is done. I'm going to start ignoring your posts because they are so repetitive and without value or merit for me. Easy peasy. You really should try it.
I'm going to teach you how being an adult and interacting in a healthy manner on an internet forum is done. I'm going to start ignoring your posts because they are so repetitive and without value or merit for me. Easy peasy. You really should try it.
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