Kenneth Welker Bariatric Surgeon M.D.

I met with Dr. Welker last week and was immediately impressed with him. He seemed very down to earth and easygoing and even my husband was impressed, which isn't easy to do. He was calling patients back and into the exam rooms himself because his nurse was running behind, this impressed me quite a bit. I have worked in clinics and with doctors that think they are too good for that and would rather blame the nurses than help the problem. He was very honost and up front with me about my insurance Regence BC/BS and said that they 99.99999% won't pay and he encouraged me to take other routes. Between him and his nurse, they answered every question I had and spent almost 2 hours with me in the room. Thinking back, I am tryng to think if there is anything negative to say about him, and I honostly cannot come up with anything except I was not impressed with the outdated clinic. It definately looked straight out of the 70's. Don't these surgeons make a bundle?... Maybe they shoud get a new place, or do they not want us to know how much they REALLY make and this is a disguise. His nurse said they plan on remodeling soon, thank God. Overall, I rate him a 9.5

My surgen has actually changed twice. Originally it was to be Dr Patterson, but when I called for my consultation appointment Dr Pattersons offcie staff informed me that Pacific Care had dropped them from their coverage 4 months ago (funny how no one from their office called me to tell me that.) So I found Dr Flanagan's name and went down to see him in Eugene, but when I got there they had me scheduled to see Dr Welker, and even though Im sure Dr Flanagan is a great Doctor I am so happy with DR Welker, he is very down to business, but that is good because he is getting the job done for me, and his office staff is the most patient and understanding group of Ladies I have ever dealt with.

Dr. Welker was confident, supporting and kind, very generous with his time and willing and able to answer questions of any nature related to the two types of surgery he performs. He has a very low regard for insurance companies (I liked him immediately for this alone). His staff has been very kind and helpful. I have met with Dr. Welker only once and talked with him on the phone three or four times. We have e-mailed back and forth several times also. I was denied insurance coverage (specific exclusion) by my insurance company, ODS, but I was approved for the procedure by my husband's insurer, CIGNA, a few days after ODS denied me. So, we've just scheduled surgery for 12/15/00 and I will keep you posted as to my experiences regarding aftercare, etc. We have not covered the risks extensively, nor what to expect after surgery. I hope that this will occur when I meet with him for a "work up" on 12/11/00. I am feeling a little uninformed right now. We have not discussed nutrition or long term food issues, etc. He has discussed some of the complications of this surgery as well as some of the lifestyle changes that will occur; lifetime of taking vitamin and mineral supplements, possibly no sugar, etc. I'll update as available.

12/11/00 - I've just left my follow up visit with the doctor somewhat disappointed. I met with him all of 10 minutes, he was obviously tired and he came into my room with a file that didn't have even his chart notes from my last visit. He informed me that he wasn't doing the surgery lap any more for right now so he'd be doing it open and I could cancel the surgery if I wanted to. I'm not canceling, of course, but I'm just left feeling surprised and somewhat dismayed. Thank goodness for this web site!

12/19/00 - Well, I am impressed with Dr. Welker related to his after surgery follow up with me and the quality of his work. I felt well cared for in the hospital and the pain management was very successful.

6/4/01 - Dr. Welker went into private practice and left the medical center where I had the surgery. At my 3 month follow up I met with a doctor that didn't know the first thing about bariatric surgery. It was a little disheartening.

6/23/02 - after care has pretty been nonexistent. At 6 months and the annual visit I met with people that didn't seem to know anything about bariatric surgery. It was weird. My primary care physician knows more than the folks at OHSU so I'm having my files transferred to her for after care. I've never seen or heard from Dr. Welker since I left the hospital after surgery.

My first impression of Dr. Welker was that he is a kind, caring and understanding physician and person. Over time, my respect and admiration for him has only grown. His personality, bedside manner and (most importantly) skill as a surgeon are not matched by any physician I've ever met. His office staff is very professional, but also very personable. Nearly everyone that works for him has had a weight loss surgery, so there is a great deal that they can help the patient with as well. I have had a problem or two with the scheduling aspect of the office, but they have always been courteous and helpful about getting it taken care of. I have yet to find (and don't anticipate that I will find) anything that I do not like and respect about Dr. Welker. Future patients should know that he is a fantastic surgeon, physician and person. Dr. Welker is very concerned about aftercare, even having his patients write a short "essay" about his or her commitment to following up with him on bloodwork, etc. over the years to follow. Dr. Welker thoroughly addressed all of the risks of surgery with myself and my support person prior to surgery. I felt well-informed about all of the possibilities going into my surgery. On a scale of 1-10, with 10 being the most wonderful and trustworthy person in whose hands I would ever put my life, I would rate Dr. Welker at least a 12. I consider myself blessed to have found Dr. Welker. His surgical competence and proficiency continue to amaze and impress me. His bedside manner is a breath of fresh air. Even when he is overwhelmingly busy in the office (for example, the hospital double-booked him for several follow-up appointments yesterday when I was there), he is fully focused on me when he is with me. He always addresses my concerns and answers my questions to my satisfaction. He truly cares for each and every one of his patients!

Dr. Welker is caring and competent. He seems to have a genuine calling for helping us morbidly obese people. I was first impressed with his willingness to "think out of the box" to individualize care and treatment. (I had a severe reflux problem that was not weight related and whereas the other surgeon I had consulted wouldn't consider doing anything in addition to WLS, Dr. Welker was willing and did do a fundoplication along with the duodenal switch procedure.) Over time my admiration and respect for him have grown. He thinks creatively and is extremely generous with his time. Concerning his "Office staff"?.... Overworked. Future patients should know they can ask him ANYTHING. Dr Welker has always emphasized that the best results for healthy optimal weight loss and maintanence after WLS are achieved with good, balanced nutrition and regular aerobic and resistive exercise, but since moving his practice from the University setting in Portland to a private practice in Eugene he now has the resources to provide a comprehensive Bariatric program for pre and post op WLS patients. Risks of surgery are well described in the information booklet he and his staff provide to all patients + he discusses risks/benefits of surgery in detail and answers any and all questions prior to obtaining surgical consent. Rating? I'd say A+. Dr Welker is an unusual physician who LISTENS to patients and plans their care WITH them. He is also an experienced general, thoracic, vascular and trauma surgeon who had a very successful practice in Boise prior to chosing to focus on bariatric surgery. It would be difficult to say which is better -- competence or bedside manner -- he's genuinely gifted in both respects.

ADDITIONAL INFORMATION RE: Kenneth J Welker, MD
The "Welker Saga as I know it to be" is posted below so that it can remain in the archives of this list to be read by any and all who might be in need of knowing more about Dr Welker's background and the basis of some of the misinformation and negative innuendo that is sometimes encountered on the various internet WLS group lists.

Dr Welker has NOT ever had his medical license suspended or revoked in any state. Nor has he ever been formally reprimanded in any state. Anyone who claims something different is misinformed or purposely distorting the truth. Dr Welker currently holds an active license in both Oregon and Idaho.

HOWEVER, the State Medical Board in Idaho DID issue a disciplinary "stipulation and order" in May of 1998 which was mutually agreed upon in lieu of pursuing a formal hearing. The "stipulation and order" restricted Dr Welker from practicing in Idaho beginning July 1,1998 until additional unspecified "training" and a "documentation course relative to medical records and medical record keeping" was completed. It stated that the status of his license would remain active.

Hearings held at the local level at the two hospitals where he practiced in Boise found him to be innocent of the charges that were the basis of the State's case. The initial summary suspensions of his hospital privileges in Boise were reversed and his hospital privileges were restored.

In September 2000 the Idaho State Board of Medicine issued an "order terminating" the previous "stipulation and order" and thus removed the restriction.

Question: What is the difference between a "stipulation and order" and "suspension"?

The Idaho State Board of Medicine defines each as follows:

Stipulation and Order: an agreement between the Board and the practitioner regarding authorization to practice or placing terms or conditions on the authorization to practice in Idaho.

Suspension: temporary withdrawal of authorization to practice in Idaho.

Reprimand: a formal admonishment of conduct or practice in Idaho.

Revocation: cancellation of the authorization to practice in Idaho.

The state of Idaho did NOT suspend, reprimand or revoke Dr Welker's license to practice medicine. A "suspension" or "revocation" of a medical license is a very serious disciplinary event by a state medical board while a "stipulation and order" is less onerous. It may seem like an unimportant matter of semantics to a lay person, but misunderstanding and misinformation about the status of professional licensure can be very damaging to a physician's reputation and practice.

Question: Isn't a stipulation the same as a plea bargain?

No, in a judicial plea bargain the accused admits guilt. In this situation, as stated in the Idaho 1998 "stipulation and order" document, Dr Welker maintained that he had NOT practiced below the standard of care as accused. Outcomes of the hearings held at the local level support his claim. Unfortunately hospital hearings do not fall under "freedom of information" laws and are not readily available to the public, but copies of those hearings ARE in the State files.

Question: What did Dr Welker do to receive the disciplinary action of a "stipulation & order"?

In 1996 the Idaho State Medical Board filed a public complaint against Dr Welker alleging 8 cases of substandard care based on information received directly from a group of competing surgeons. The State's case was later amended to include 7 additional cases (for a total of 15 out of more than 6000 from his 8 years of private practice in Idaho). At no time prior to the State's1996 complaint was Dr Welker the subject of a known investigation, malpractice complaint or any special quality assurance or adverse peer review activity at either of the two hospitals in Boise where he practiced St. Alphonsus and St. Luke's.

In 1998 after extensive investigation and testimony regarding these and other cases, the St Alphonsus hospital hearing panel concluded that in ALL cases under review "Dr Welker's medical knowledge and general surgical technical skills measured up to the applicable standard of health care practice...". The panel did, however, give a recommendation for improvement of "documentation thoroughness".

The St Luke's panel concluded that Dr Welker's care and documentation met or EXCEEDED the standard of care in ALL of the cases reviewed within their facility. An additional finding stated that "the hearing and testimony also revealed serious flaws in the St. Luke's Medical Staff administrative functions". This referred to the fact that the complainant surgeons had misused their medical staff positions to channel cases secretly and directly to the State Board without benefit of the hospital process of prior peer review. The hearing panel noted in their findings that Dr Welker had not been allowed due process or reasonable civil rights by either his local colleagues or state officials.

After reviewing all of the facts not previously made available to him, Dr Kent Kruder, the then Idaho Chapter Governor of the American College of Surgeons who had originally been retained by the Board of Medicine as a consultant, testified via preliminary deposition that it was his opinion that Dr Welker had NOT practiced below the standard of care. The Board of Medicine, apparently seeking a different outcome, discharged Dr. Kruder and sought other expert witness instead.

Dr Welker's attorney, Marvin Firestone MD JD, counseled that it was his experienced opinion that an evidently biased, pre judged, pre determined adverse outcome of the State Medical Board administrative hearing set for May 1998 should be expected. He estimated that a judicial appeal of such an outcome would take approximately 3 to 5 years during which time Dr Welker would not be able to practice medicine. Without sufficient funds to continue legal defense if not working, Dr Welker agreed (against advice of his legal counsel) to a negotiated stipulation beginning July 1998. That's how he came to be at Oregon Health Sciences University for evaluation and training.

Within 6 weeks of his arrival at OHSU his proctor, Dr Cliff Deveney, and the department chair, Dr Don Trunkey, apparently concluded that Dr Welker was accomplished and not in need of additional general surgery training. A letter to that effect was sent to the Idaho Medical Board. No response or explanation was ever given to OHSU or to Dr Welker as to what deficiency needed to be "corrected" by further "training". What was originally intended to be an "evaluation by an outside academic surgical program" became a 2 year "sentence". Thus Dr Welker continued to work from August of 1998 until July of 2000 at OHSU as General Surgery Clinical Instructor and Fellow.

To our great fortune Dr Welker made use of his time at OHSU by focusing on Bariatric surgery and the care of morbidly obese patients. He had practiced general, thoracic, vascular and trauma surgery in Idaho. He became interested in obesity and WLS at OHSU after hearing Dr Henry Buckwald speak at a conference and realizing the powerful potential WLS has to treat and prevent the chronic and life threatening health problems associated with morbid obesity. He became interested specifically in Duodenal Switch and Gastric Bypass/RNY after assisting another bariatric surgeon at OHSU with several cases.

When asked the reason for his interest in our plight, Dr Welker wrote: "I will likely never be morbidly obese and therefore I will likely never KNOW what it is really like, but [because of what happened in Idaho] I do know what it feels like to endure a rush to judgment and be discriminated against before ever having the opportunity to speak… I know what it feels like to struggle against something far bigger than yourself and not win. But I know, also, what it is like to hope and maintain the journey."

After his "training" was officially ended and the restriction on his Idaho license was removed, Dr Welker chose not to return to Idaho. He was promoted to Assistant Professor of Surgery at OHSU School of Medicine in July 2000. Dr Welker's intention had been to stay in academic medicine; however, in the fall of 2000 he began considering other opportunities in view of disagreement with OHSU regarding the need for support and resources for a comprehensive bariatric program. He resigned his position in April of 2001 and pursued these other opportunities.

Dr Welker is now in private practice as director of the Life Lyte Scientific Surgical Care program in Eugene OR and has joined the surgical staff at the Sacred Heart Regional Medical Center with provisional privileges during a customary probationary period. Dr Welker openly and frankly answers any and all questions asked by patients.

Question: Didn't Dr Welker lose hospital privileges at OHSU and Sacred Heart?

No, but Dr Welker's "history" in Idaho along with his choice to practice a very high-risk specialty has precipitated extreme scrutiny beyond the ordinary at both institutions. In both situations he stopped doing surgery during investigations involving adverse patient outcomes, but neither hospital suspended or revoked his hospital staff privileges.

The recent planned review at Sacred Heart included an external examination of cases, including a fatality, by 4 outside bariatric surgeons. Once again it was concluded that Dr Welker's practice exceeds community standards of care. One of the reviewing surgeons wrote: "In conclusion, if I, or a member of my family, were to ever require this surgery, I would look for and find a surgeon like this one to perform the surgery and to take responsibility for the post operative care as exemplified in these cases."

Question: But haven't there been "gaps" in active practice?

Dr Welker was able to work during the 2 years (1996 to 1998) he and his attorney successfully appealed the suspensions at the two Boise hospitals. Six fellow surgeons who were outraged by the competitor inspired action at the state level and the resulting hasty action by the local hospitals negotiated an arrangement which allowed Dr Welker to continue doing surgeries with one of them assisting. The generosity of those 6 surgeons enabled Dr Welker to work during that period to support his family and to pay for the very expensive legal costs to defend himself.

The State hearing was scheduled for May 1998 after the local hearings/action. The "order and stipulation" is dated May 1998 and the stipulated period began July 1, 1998. Dr Welker worked at OHSU from August of 1998 until April 2001.

Although he stopped doing consults and surgeries in early February of 2001, I am witness to the fact that Dr Welker remained at OHSU caring for my sister-in-law in the ICU until mid March. He then finished up some administrative work before leaving in April. He received staff privileges at Sacred Heart in May 2001 and began private practice there in Eugene in June 2001.

While there were 1 to 2 month "vacations" between positions, there were no unusual "gaps" in practice as evidenced by the above dates.

Question: Was there ANY basis in fact for the Idaho charges against Dr Welker?

I believe the State charges were exaggerated and distorted.

For example, in one case Dr Welker was accused of acting in haste when he took a young woman into surgery for excision of an infection because her white blood count was normal at 10K. The allegations omit an important additional fact: The patient had Necrotizing Fasciitis with a culture positive for Group A Beta hemolytic Streptococcus (aka as "flesh eating bacteria"). Not only did early intervention spare extensive disfigurement, it may have spared her life. Maybe the "old guard" surgeons of Boise would have waited, but I and most professionals I know would want the judgment and actions of a surgeon like Dr Welker.

In another, the Idaho document alleges that: "Patient had decreased breath sounds in the left lung field and Respondent placed a chest tube, evacuated a hemopnumothorax and placed a central line in the left subclavian vein. Respondent was the trauma surgeon and improperly left the evaluation and care of a seriously injured patient, who was hemodynamically unstable, to the emergency room MD." Even without further information that charge seems strange. It doesn't make logical sense to describe the many things Dr Welker did in an attempt to stabilize the patient and then accuse that he hadn't been there to evaluate and treat the patient. Nor does it seem reasonable or rational for the state to imply that it was inappropriate having a patient remain in the care of an emergency room MD since caring for unstable patients is the specialty of ER doctors.

Next the allegations states: "The patient showed signs of increasing internal bleeding requiring transfusion to maintain blood pressure, but the Respondent was unavailable". Again, the State charges omit an important fact: There was a second trauma victim and Dr. Welker was in the OR with that person when the first patient began to deteriorate again. Dr Welker requested that the patient be transferred to a higher level Trauma Center since further deterioration indicated that the patient had a major blood vessel bleeding and the other center had a cardiovascular service available. Their heart lung machine and cardiovascular specialty surgeon would likely have been the patient's ONLY hope for survival. (The original hospital was a lower level Trauma center). Did the State's attorney really believe that Dr Welker should have left the 2nd patient in the OR risking that patient's death as well when there was nothing more he could have done to help the 1st patient?

Question: If Dr Welker was found to be innocent of the charges at the local level, why didn't the State drop its charges?

Information that is publicly available and verifiable seems to indicate that the Idaho State Board of Medicine did not have adequate safeguards in place to prevent a corrupt process. In 2000 the Idaho State Legislative Oversight Committee began an inquiry and investigation into their State Medical Board's proscribed activities and lack of attention to due process. This was followed by multiple resignations and sudden departures from the Board. With House Bill 628, the state legislature directed the Board to restructure to provide a clear division in the investigatory and adjudcatory functions and to adopt new rules similar to the Attorney General's rules for contested cases and the complaint process. These new changes to practice and procedure and complaint investigation were EMERGENTLY adopted on July 1, 2000.

It is my opinion that this information along with the fact that the Medical Board dismissed their own "expert witness" after he testified that Dr Welker did NOT give substandard care in ANY of the cases do not speak well of the Board's competence or integrity at the time of his proceedings. The bottom line is that no substandard care was found in any case (22 at St Alphonsus, 7 at St Luke's these included the 8 original and 7 additional cases that were in the State allegations) and the State hearing was never held.

It should also be noted that the Federal Courts have overturned at least three consecutive adverse physician disciplinary proceedings conducted by the Idaho Board during the time of Dr Welker's proceedings. These all involved physicians who chose to "fight" rather than "stipulate". These doctors lost their medical licenses and thus their ability to practice until the Board's corrupt decisions were overturned on appeal and their licenses rightfully restored some 5 or 8 years later! Undoubtedly none had much of a practice to return to by then and little money left to reestablish a new practice.

Question: You mentioned "competing surgeons", are you implying that the several complaining surgeons had financial motives when they made their allegations against Dr Welker?

I have implied that, but truthfully I cannot know what their motives may have been. What I do know is that no patient complaint or malpractice action was ever involved and Marvin Firestone MD JD, Dr Welker's attorney, recommended immediately taking the case to the federal level on an anti trust basis (i.e. other surgeons in collusion to eliminate competition) rather than protest/defend at the local and state levels.

Dr Welker chose instead to proceed at the local level because he wanted the opportunity to prove he had not practiced below community standards of care. Unfortunately once that path had been taken, the law required all "local legal administrative remedies" to be "exhausted" before the matter could be taken higher and it was much more costly and time consuming than anticipated. The process of first successfully appealing the loss of hospital privileges at St Luke's and St Alphonsus took 2 years.

The prospect of spending more money and more time for a federal appeal of what appeared to be a forgone conclusion of a corrupt state board of medicine was undoubtedly daunting.

Question: What is the source of all of your information?

I began my inquiries prior to my own surgery in April 2000. I discovered a 1999 newsletter from the Idaho State Board of Medicine listing Kenneth Jay Welker as having a "stipulation and order" under disciplinary actions. Having been a nurse at Stanford for over 25 years, I knew that "disciplinary action" against a professional may be the result of many things other than medical incompetence. For example, a physician of my acquaintance was disciplined in California for "unprofessional conduct" and he was mandated to go to special "training" regarding sexual harassment.

Through a paid doctor/credential investigation service, I found that Dr Welker had never been the subject of a reportable malpractice claim and he had never had his medical license suspended or revoked. So, although I didn't know the nature of whatever caused the disciplinary action in Idaho, I was satisfied after talking personally with him during my consult that whatever occurred in Idaho probably was not an indication of incompetence, negligence or serious wrongdoing.

Then in February 2001 after my sister-in-law was readmitted to OHSU for her complications 12 days post DS, I made additional inquiries. I met with Dr Roy Magnusen, the OHSU Chief of Staff because it was my opinion that her well-being was being jeopardized by the acting chief of surgery inexplicably overruling the interventions that Dr Welker had planned and had explained to me the night of her readmission. I advocated that Dr Welker be given full authority as her attending physician to do what he believed was best without interference from the chief of surgery who was not experienced in the care of morbidly obese individuals. When my repeated requests, as my sister-in-law's court appointed guardian, were ignored, I retained an attorney to help me. In order to better understand the apparent and unusual "political" situation my attorney made further inquiries on our behalf regarding Dr Welker's background in Idaho. In addition to the public records, my attorney was able to obtain some of the "inside scoop" via his own professional medical and legal contacts there which again confirmed to my satisfaction that there was not evidence of incompetence, negligence or wrong doing. Dr Magnusen, the OHSU Chief of Staff, confirmed that Dr Welker's original employment status was as part of the terms of the Idaho "stipulation and order".

I have since spoken to and corresponded with Dr Welker regarding what happened and he has been very forthright. All that he has told me has been consistent with the information that is publicly available and that Dr Magnusen and my attorney have provided to me.

Also, recently (April 2002) at a review course for Nurse Practitioner certification, I met a nurse from Boise who had personal knowledge of the situation. She reconfirmed the basics and summed it all up by saying "He [Dr Welker} did nothing wrong other than to piss off the wrong person"!

Internet sites where you can read some of the information for yourself:
www.idacare.org (search by name under Welker, Kenneth)
www.born.state.id.us/about/newsletter_2000.pdf

05/06/02
Gayle Ann Hand

I was very impressed with Dr Welker when I met him. He quickly addressed my primary concerns about diabetic wound healing with a plan for close control of my blood glucose levels. I was given very specific instructions for both preop and postop as well as long term expectations. His staff made the visit very comfortable with their easy attitude and it was both reassuring and educational to discover that 2 of the staff were post op patients of his as well.
Although I primarily want a competant surgeon, the attitude of Dr Welker and his staff allow us to work together as an excellent team.

I researched this surgery thoroughly and I didn't have any questions. Dr. Welker asked my some questions, got right to the point and said let's get you scheduled. The only thing I would let people know is that he charged me $150.00 for the letter to the insurance company. He said it was so if there were any troubles, he could go to the insurance company for me. I didn't have a problem with that, but I had no idea that I would be spending that much money during the initial appointment. I got the feeling that I wouldn't get the letter until they got a check for the $150. Besides this (which isn't a bad thing necessarily) I thought he was straight to the point, upfront and he seems like a great doctor. I have full and total confidence in him.

I have heard so many wonderful things about Dr.
Welker that I had some high expectations of him.
When we first started my consult he seemed really
business like. Then we began discussing surgery
options and he lightened up a lot and displayed
his true nature. He is funny, intelligent and
incredibly caring. I got the impression that he
chose Bariatric Surgery to help people not because
of the money. He was very detailed on the surgery
types he offered. He was very explicit about the benefits
and the downside of each option. I really liked
Dr. Welker and am recommending him to a friend.

My first impression: I liked him, but he seemed hurried. He talked very fast. I had already researched the surgery so pretty much knew what I needed to know...but if I had been a newbie, I think I might have been confused with how fast the consult went. Maybe he went that fast because I had told him how much I had researched it also. He did get a page during the meeting so he might have needed to go see a patient in the hospital too. Overall though...I felt good coming out of the appointment.
The office staff, Sue, was very friendly. She had had the surgery herself. She talked to me about her experience a bit while she weighed me and took my vitals.
What did I like least? Well, he didn't look me in the eye while he was talking to me very much. That and that he seemed hurried.
Aftercare......he didn't really go much into the aftercare. He just basically outlined it.
He didn't really address the risks of surgery. But having researched, I knew the risks already.
Rating? So far so good....I will let you know as we get further in.

What a wonderful experience I had on my very first visit...Dr. Welker if friendly, and takes a lot of time to explain the surgery. What I liked a lot is that when he didn't know the answer to a question, he said so, he didn't dance around hoping not to sound studpid. He just said "I don't know"...A real nice guy...He stressed nutrition and that this surgery is only a tool, not a license to eat what ever, when ever you want. It is not a magic cure, but it's darn close!..I liked him and his manner and felt confident that I was in safe hands...I did feel a bit rushed through the interview. It felt that he was reading from a script. He had trouble keeping eye contact and stared out the window. It wasn't a big deal, but I did notice...His staff is wonderful.